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Add a Cooldown on Shifter

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Mar 31, 2022.

  1. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Implying balancing is done based on a majority vote :^)
     
  2. philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    Tbh I wonder if we even have a balance team anymore since no changes last patch. Fix the god damn coins or remove the system and compensate this is too^24215215 god damn slow man
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  3. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    That patch was only for V-day/lunar event. The next patch is going to be a balance patch and anniversary event.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The point of this thread was to showcase the various issues with the normalization of thief avoid as a given and the effective dodge rate of thieves being abused for things like lazy/multiclienting NLs or out of party shadower sed mules. For a class that already outputs a ridiculous amount of damage, I found it weird that NLs were also the class that needed to be understood the least while still reaping the benefits of the biggest reward.

    For a melee class that needs to deal with a generally higher damage threshold for touch damage, avoid and shifter makes a ton of sense to be a part of a Shadower's tool kit. However, for content like Horntail when jump bstep is used over ds/nate, I can see why the shifter nerf could be seen as more damaging to shadowers, but IMO none of that really adds to the mountains of issues of Shadowers in the current HT meta. Sed muling in party, hp shad muling out of party, arm locking, head-only/single-target meta - these are all things that are keeping actual Shadowers out of most serious Horntail compositions, whereas in the past, Shadowers were welcomed and sought out for in most consistent 6 mans. But IMO, lowering Shadower dodge rate in HT doesn't really lower their displacement in the meta - and the answer for this can be found through a simple thought experiment: would shadowers be more accepted into Horntail if they had an even higher dodge rate today? The answer to that is 100% no.

    Also I found it pointless to offer my own suggestions on how to fix Shadowers. GurkGurk has been advocating for shad buffs and have several really great suggestion threads that have gone completely ignored, so anything I could say regarding a shad class rework, he could do it better ten-fold anyways.

    On the flip side, would NLs be accepted into Horntail and basically every type of bossing content if their dodge rate was even higher? Absolutely, because they already are the de facto #1 class in the game. Compound that with the situation that NLs are most likely the laziest class to play, and you can see why a nerf might be warranted - albeit mine was a really insignificant one that Alyosha has pointed out with math, yet people are still so allergic to ANY type of conversation regarding rebalancing/nerfing. What gives NLs their claim to reign supreme over everything in this game? Is it their crafty use of skills, difficulty in creating a squishy ranged attacker with HP washing, or their horrid single-target grinding? Or is it simply because it's been normalized to do so? What is the justification for NLs being the de facto strongest class in the game - outside of nostalgia?

    Regarding people commenting that they'd rather see everyone else buffed instead of nerfing NL - that seems like a surefire way to break this server entirely and is what Neckson actually did in GMS with the implementation of things like every class Flash Jump and full map attacks with Dual Blades. Class homogeneity is the reason GMS died and why we play a pre-big bang server. Turning bowmasters into immovable turrets sounds like a good idea until you realize people will just use that to mule more and more clients like they are already doing with NL and avoid.

    For those asking NLs to just get a damage nerf over an avoid nerf, I ask - by how much? Would a damage nerf to be slightly above a Shadowers' single target damage be warranted? Below Corsair who deal with boat management? Below Archers who have less avoid and have to deal with constant dpm loss from repositioning? Below Paladins who deal with stuns and a melee range for attack? In order to keep NL avoid, how much damage are you willing to give up?

    And at the end of it, the problem isn't necessarily that NLs just do a ton of damage. The problem is that NLs are being given a tool kit that far outclasses any other - highly efficient with damage, highly efficient with pots and survivability, with attack pot usage, mobility, inputs required to yield outputs, etc. - and there isn't a single flaw in their entire lifespan besides being SE dependent and maybe not being able to mob - which isn't even an issue in end-game content where they're supposed to thrive.

    This was never meant to be a holistic/class balance thread, which I 100% agree is a problem that needs to be looked into further. However, asking staff to give a holistic rebalancing in one go is unrealistic. We're in a situation where we have only 1 developer on staff that can only do so much with his limited and thinly stretched time. It just makes a shit ton more sense to bring NLs back closer to the average so that the game isn't so determined by a singular product in damage output.

    As it has been said already, a NL with zero shifter is most likely still a top-3 attacker. A slight nerf to shifter won't do much to its overall ranking, but it will most definitely shake up the complacency for which players are normalizing brain dead gameplay for the strongest class. If you want to stay on top, fight for it.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 5
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  5. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Even as public NL hater #1, there's nothing wrong with NL being "top dpm". It's simply an unbalanceable mess right now brought on by being at both the extreme ends of singlr target dummy dpm and avoid. It makes for an unbalanceable mess that shows no weak points. With the exception of NL, it's possible to devise a single target bossing situation where some or all other classes can struggle. It is virtually impossible to create a bossing situation where NL is challenged. "bUt nL cAnT gRiNd" has even been contested and shown to be passable, even if the point of grinding is entirely moot due to a leech centric meta going all the way to 200.

    On a clean server, that design balance wouldve likely been achieved by the fact that the nl had to be aware of their surroundings, actively dodging with fj, and be reliant on others for hb and se. If they weren't careful, they could get one shot by "big" boss attacks, but are given tools to manage that risk for their reward. On grinding, avoid makes kiting or fjing through mobs cleaner (less kb chance), and reduces overall penalties for getting hit by non-1 shot attacks. Sadly, bosses in maple go counter to that philosophy, as most see players locked in a tiny room with a stationary boss, and is probably the biggest aspect modern maple did "right" in terms of rewarding mobile active gameplay.

    The thing that baffles me the most about all of this, is that players seem to claim that single button gameplay and never needing to move is "what nl is designed to be". Night Lords are ninjas, not piles of rocks. I honestly do believe there are ways to move all classes from "le brain dead hold 1 button gameplay", and theres likely even a way to differentiate "active" NL play as well. If keeping paperweight rock gameplay is the priority, it should not also come with being top damage in a multiclient meta. Let it be the cheapest/easiest to use class, or a top dpm class, but not both.

    I actually have no problems with realistic NL dpms, and consider them in a "good place" on that scale. But I won't respect it if poor gameplay is capable of just as much. Reworking afk 1 button classes *can* preserve core identities while making a better game overall.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
  6. Rapskal
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    Rapskal Chronos

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    Ideally I would want night lords to be below archers and corsairs, above an element-neutral paladin, and above a single-target shadower as they are in their current state. I know that these kinds of drastic changes aren't very reasonable for a server at this point, but I just wanted to say that would be my ideal for a balanced maplestory.

    That being said, I feel like I should clarify a bit that I don't really participate in the kind of endgame that we're even discussing, and my ideals aren't actually based on experience or even a deep understanding of multiple classes in PB and HT.

    When I play this game, I almost exclusively grind as NL. Trying to optimise NL grinding (within the constraints of single-client NL, obviously not close to optimal when compared to other strategies) is by far my favourite activity in MapleLegends. I believe there's a lot of skill involved; positioning well, knowing which targets you'll hit if you attack at any given time, switching between avenger and triple throw, trying to utilise taunt well (I swear taunt is the hardest skill in the game to use well).
    And of course flash jumping. Flash jump is what makes NL grinding more enjoyable to me than any other class, the speed of moving across the screen and manoeuvring to just the right spot, and an important part of that is the fluidity of not getting hit and knocked out of a flash jump. This is what really motivated me to oppose this suggestion.

    I get that this context may make my feelings less important, but still I just wanted to be clearer on where I stand on this.
     
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  7. Rapskal
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    Rapskal Chronos

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    When I said being braindead is part of class identity I wasn't being entirely sincere, as I don't truly think of NL as being braindead. It was just trying to express the idea that I think it would be a healthy variety in the game if they weren't a top DPM class but still were the easiest to play in bosses, with other classes being more difficult and being able to achieve higher DPMs. As opposed to changes that would lead to NLs becoming more similar in difficulty and similar in DPM to other classes.
     
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  8. Epications
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    Epications Mano

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    Yes, exactly. Give Shadowers Flash Jump and Shadow Partner for some even footing, and maybe give Heros a better mobbing skill at 4th job.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  9. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    They are always accepted in HT. The biggest problem is finding one since no 1 wants to play that dead class for PB. (same goes for other dead class) As a result, ppl have to mule them to host HT consistently. blame PB for it. How many shads u see in a PB run vs how many NLs?

    I rather u buff BM, so that I can start to ws10 my bow :giggle:
     
  10. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    Hi I quit this game long ago but still like to come back and read content, this thread has been fun. Just want to say

    I've also been pushing for this forever when I used to play this game. I don't get how people just accept that you get this class that comes packaged with a full skillset to be the ultimate dps machine while simultaneously being pretty much autopilot, having highest dodge chance, best attack potion efficiency and also have far and away the best mobility.

    Maximum hilarity when there was a thread after NL nerf (I think it was some kind of throwing star rarity/damage/price nerf) and there were people whining about being outclassed by Corsairs like bruh really the class that actually needs APM to play is slightly less-worse than your braindead 10APM gameplay? Utterly no pity from me sorry
     
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  11. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    make bishops top dpm class. Based on APM, bishops seem to be the highest in HT.
    Thanks. :D
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
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  12. OP
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    -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I find it pretty strange people think Shadowers are not accepted in PB. They're the attacking class that can progress to PB levels probably the fastest while doing comparable mid-level damage with average funding. With the emergence of more groups, Shadowers are a basic necessity to salvage semi-scuffed runs through Meso Explosion. Shadowers are also perfect sed mules for Phase 4 & 5, especially if you're running a full 30-man comp with not enough extra bishops, and they can be placed in the bishopless dark sight party.

    Shadowers could also be saving their mesos on apples and instead drop mesos during DR. They also have pretty fat utility in PB with smoke, though I agree with iPippy that smoke frequency could be changed to something shorter and more frequent (10 s duration, 1 min cd) rather than a 40 second bathroom break every 5 minutes.

    Are they end-game attackers? Probably not, which is why they are always mentioned along with mages and warriors as the best starter classes. Could they use a buff? Absolutely.

    As for HT balance, yeah, Shadowers suck in HT right now. That is mostly due to how seduce and arm aggro works, not necessarily because their damage is subpar. A strong shad can get something like a 11-12m dpm 45, if I remember correctly. The problem is the cleave damage on wings and arms is non-contributing and can actually become detrimental to the run, so they're phased out of the content entirely and replaced with mules.
     
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  13. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    For that amount of washes u need on a shad, u had rather wash a NL of similar HP and get into non semi-scuffed runs. It is perfectly normal to be a NL over anything these days, given how much leverage the class has over other classes.

    For the cleave damage on arms, yeah, it is non-contributing and can be detrimental to the run. Then again, shadowers could wash to lvl 200 and no 1 would care.

    I guess the question in crux now should be whether the meta of "starter class into NL" is something advocated/influenced across the community.

    A joke for you. Throw a stone into FM and 3 stones are thrown back. Because Triple Throw.:kiss: Ok, pls buff BMs and validate my decision to ws my bow.
     
  14. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    You have answered your own question :)
     
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  15. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    Can other starter classes be buffed as well?
     
  16. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Just wondering, how much damage should BMs do in relation to NL to validate your decision to ws your bow? 100% of NL's damage? or 80%?
     
  17. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    i am not sure. its either i ws my dsb or my red craven first. LOL. Leaning towards the latter. maybe ovv has a better idea.
     
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  18. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    I can be wrong here since i didnt runned endgame bosses yet, but i'm almost sure gurk already did the math and shads didn't save that amount of pots since the nature of MG is tanking damage with mesos, when nightlords gets more apple time with almost the same avoid.

    Seems not fair, and since we're probably always going to disagree in every class balancement thread i'll just avoid answering more, since we have different point of views.

    But i'll remember my point here, in the end the easiest stage of the game is level till 150~ with mages and gtop100 for a few seconds every day, the hardest stage is funding and level till 200, why the guy who like drk, hero, shad, bucc needs to be worse and apple to try reach others (oh, they can apple too)?
    At least seems like this isn't the staff point of view, since bucc is very good now.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. OP
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    -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    We've discovered a tech that allows Shadowers to boom other peoples' mesos. For any attacker that does less than 2.5-3m dpm on apples, they should be dropping mesos during DR instead of appling, or else they're just wasting attack pots for minimal gain. This doesn't apply for 18 man squads where they're capable of swapping their body phase attackers to mages, but it can be extremely useful for 30 mans that struggle to finish due to a lack of DPM. This makes having at least 1 Shadower on board pretty useful as some sort of insurance.

    As for the point of my suggestion - Shadowers would have mostly the same effective dodge rate during PB due to their use of Assassinate/Dark Sight refreshing their shifter.

    Shadowers are a mid-tier level class (harder to wash than warriors, mages) and their single target damage needs a rework. That wasn't really part of the discussion. The main point of this thread is that dodge rate is a pretty large variable to effective dpm and there seems to be a discrepancy if you use player skill to damage reward as a metric.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    what about cleaving with b.step? 3 and 4 targets on shadower don't bring assassinate on the optimal combo, we should lost more dpm just for nerfing NL's? isn't better just messing the avoid formula or nerfing the raw damage of then? (if a nerf came out).
    Probably someone already said it but i'm too lazy to read everything, anyways i can't agree with the DS resetting SS, feels like a clunky change and nightlords is already a suboptimal class in comparation with a good corsair, SE reliant etc etc
     

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