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Buff Flamethrower + Ice Splitter

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Pixel, Jun 7, 2023.

  1. Pixel

    Pixel Mixed Golem

    Jun 17, 2018
    1:13 PM
    For Outlaws at least


    Subway Surfers Gameplay


    With that a reclarification this isn't a buff to CORSAIRS
    As HP Challenges approaching closer and closer, there's going to be a handful of people trying out Corsair, but not everyone has a Bishop or the funds to skip Outlaw entirely so they'll mostly grind
    Here's the current issues as someone who's playing Outlaw firsthand and what i've experienced

    Flame/Ice are 2 separate skills that are meant to be Outlaw's main mobbing all the way to 4th job (Usually replaced by torpedo or improved with Elemental Boost) and are meant to be used in combination to offset their respective cooldowns
    Spamming one will put a lengthy cooldown before you can use it again, that's why combined they should provide a solid damage output...right?

    We're gonna use Hermit's Avenger + Shadow Partner combo for comparisons

    Things in Common

    • Both require the user to be on the same level as the monster
    • Linear/hits the Front
    • Both can Jump attack
    • Hermits require minimum range, Outlaws can use them at point blank
    • Outlaws require two types of special ammunition to cast, otherwise they'll do HALF the displayed % damage
    • Outlaws need to cast TWO skills constantly
    • Outlaws can freeze the monsters they attack with the combo
    • Hermit's Avenger has a multiplier of 180% while Flame/Ice has 160% and 130% respectively
    • Hermit has a longer range with Avenger
    You can see i didn't add up Flame/Ice elemental bonuses on this chart and it's because they're so incredibly counterprodictive that they almost never come into play

    Most Ice type monsters who obviously will be weak to Fire will be immune to the freeze and damage altogether (aka you may hit 1.5x more with fire, but you'll hit 1s with the other) and viceversa, making the elemental bonus almost pointless unless you can find a monster weak to an element that isnt resistant to the other.

    Now we need to compare damage because Hermits have two more things to account for
    Critical Damage and Shadow Partner

    Shadow partner adds an extra line of 50% the damage and Critical Doubles the damage

    Assuming a flat 1000 average damage range on this Hermit

    Avenger would hit 1800 base with it, then add 900 with shadow partner and if they both crit 3600 and 1800 respectively
    that means Hermit's Avenger could hit an average of 2700 to 5400(average 4050) (every 630ms)

    A Corsair with 1000 average damage (Note that Hermits and Sairs have similar damage formulas and around the same level and same funding they'd have very similar ranges)

    Flamethrower would hit 1600 at max, and 1220 with Ice splitter at level 26 (Outlaws are advised to max other stuff and leave this at 26) which means in total they'd have 2820 (every 480 ms) (at optimal casting with ping)

    Now if we add some multipliers to that
    in 2 casts (1260 ms) Hermits would do an average of 8100 damage (max 10800)
    while in 3 dual casts (1440ms) Outlaws only do a measly 8460 damage with both skills
    So despite Outlaws being ''faster'' on paper, it takes Hermits 2 casts to do what an outlaw takes in 3 double casts (or 6 casts)

    My request is that Outlaw's damage get buffed so they can do about 9.3k damage in that amount of time approximately (reminder that would be in 1440ms compared to Hermit 1260ms)
    How? Buffing those two skills which would require them to do 3.1k in total

    I feel buffing the numbers of flamethrower to about 180% to be the same as avenger and ice splitter to 130% at 26 (140% at max) would make corsair damage to about 3100% so in 3 dual casts bring the damage to 9.3k damage

    Hermits having a 6.42 damage per ms (can get to 8.57)
    and Outlaws having a 6.44 damage per ms

    It looks like Outlaws might outdamage Hermits at first but considering Hermits potential damage, it's still gives them an advantage while Outlaw will catch up

    I feel the requirement of capsules (it's own ammunition) balances the fact that the skill has a freeze chance, it may sound ridiculous

    ''Actually Hermits need Summoning rock for Shadow Partner'' Summoning rock is easier to obtain (literally stores full of them) and goes to the ETC where there's more available slots
    While Outlaws require TWO DIFFERENT ammunition to mob on Use which has less slots (and shared with bullets and potions and scrolls from monsters)

    Now the no minimal range vs extra range seems like it benefits corsairs slightly more, and i kind of agree, but honestly at later stages, both classes really should stand back
    And the only reason corsair NEEDS the lack of minimal range is ironically the smaller damage output and shorter range

    Hermits will have an easier time triggering the minimal damage knockback from monsters with the higher numbers (hitting 360% from a crit first hit vs 180% of a buffed flamethrower that has no crit) and can start attacking them from afar

    While Outlaws need to get closer to the monster which forces them to basically use the skill on the face of enemies to get as many as possible

    So Outlaws point-blank ''benefit'' is more of a requirement to make up for their awful range (Flamethrower and Ice Splitter really feel like 2nd job skills compared to other stuff)

    But wouldn't this make Corsairs stronger than Night Lords at 4th job, they already are stronger at bossing with SE and SI?

    No, but also Yes?

    While Night Lords don't get any upgrades for Avenger at 4th job it is true that Sairs get elemental boost that will make these attacks even better.

    However No one levels up that shit anyways lmfao get ratio'd

    Corsairs already need to level battleship, cannon, bullseye, wrath before they even think about leveling Elemental Boost
    that's literally 80 points (10+30+20+20) (27 levels) (Level 147) they need to apply before even considering Elemental Boost
    And even then, most players would level up Airstrike/Torpedo first

    And if it's too much of a problem that OUTLAWS get a boost that will make Corsair Better
    Then just take 10% out of Elemental boost (so it's 190% at max instead of 200 or take 15% and turn it into 185% but that's weird) since the combined sum of the buffs will be basically 30% and since Elemental Boost, buffs both that means a 10% reduction is 20% with both combinged

    This thread has been made with the intent to Buff Outlaws which damage seems really lacking currently

    Also while we're at it, can you make flamethower and ice splitter also hit 4 monsters at level 1 instead of 2 ? like wtf
    Avenger can hit 4 at the beginning and arrow rain/eruption 6, at least so a level 1 fire+ice is a shitty yet serviceable mobbing tool, compared to Invis lame 3 mobs .
    • Great Work Great Work x 6
  2. Siegfried

    Siegfried Master Chronos

    Apr 21, 2017
    11:13 AM
    yeah, i agree flamethrower and ice splitter sucks

    curious to see the values for arrow rain vs outlaw mobbing skills if you decide to write that later though MapleF2
  3. xRuru

    xRuru Slime

    Nov 2, 2020
    2:13 PM
    Should just get rid of the damage penalty for not having fire/ice capsules and if you do have them give a damage buff instead. I promise the skills would still be weak.
  4. lv1crook

    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

    Jan 19, 2021
    11:13 AM
    Just another one of the woes plaguing the poor outlaw. I will add they can also use gaviota to add a decent chunk of dmg with essentially zero cast time and lag every 5 seconds, so their mobbing DPS is actually a little better in practice. Future outlaws take notes, at level 1 that skill is pretty great to add a little extra dmg.

    Fun fact: there is a group of mobs weak to fire that aren’t strong against ice: the yakuza in shows town. However, it’s not like this is significant since there isn’t really a great grinding spot there anyway.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. OP

    Pixel Mixed Golem

    Jun 17, 2018
    1:13 PM
    Hehe that's why i said ''Most mobs''
    Outlaw literally needs 2 skills to finally be able to mob
    They require a special ammunition, has the range of a 2nd job skill
    and still is weaker than their counterparts
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Freshmaniac

    Freshmaniac Mano

    Nov 12, 2019
    1:13 PM
    Overall, I agree with this thread. As someone who grinded from level 1-135 with some base int, I would have loved to have better mobbing capabilities to help grind (though I believe Outlaw life to still be passable). Better damage while mobbing will certainly make leveling quite easier.

    An Ice Splitter + Flamethrower buff would also be a nice card farming buff for already-4th Corsairs, so that would be nice. Out of my mages and Corsair, Corsair is by far the class of choice to farm cards on. It raises the floor for the mobs that you can 1-hit before you have to start leaning on Air Strike and Torpedo.

    However, just to comment on the elemental aspects, we only ever have to factor in the popular grinding spots (since, as you have stated, we are talking about assisting Outlaw grinding to help level up). That being said, there are like...two, optimal grinding spots from lvl 70-120 (obviously exaggerating). Like, you go from Windraiders, to CDs, then maybe to Viks/Gallos/Himes/1-2F. Go to other spots as an Outlaw and they will be slower, or *enormously* pot burning. So, the "being fire weak implies ice strong" and vice versa does not really hold water. (Viks are great, btw. ;) Take a look at them.)

    Also, just wanted to comment that your point of comparison vs. Hermits is off.
    What crit does is actually add a percentage of your range onto the damage done: Thief's/Archer's crit skill add 100% of their range (skill description misleading). It doesn't multiply the end damage done. Assuming the Hermit was doing 1800 damage with Avenger, which means their range hovers around 1000, a crit will actually deal damage + 1x range (which is +1000), which means a crit will deal 2800 damage total. So for a Shadow partner line, which deals 900 damage, a crit from a Shadow Partner line will deal 1900 damage. If they both crit, it will deal 1800+1000+900+1000=4700.

    This is why more lines of damage = more damage gained from crit. So, for example, MM Strafe changed from 110% x 4 -> 75% x 5. Although 440% > 375%, more lines means more chances to crit which add your range, so the change is overall a buff taking advantage of how crit works.

    That being said, in some instances this ends up being more damage. A crit on a normal line is equal to a crit on a Shadow Partner line. So normal line no crit (1800) and a Shadow Partner crit (1900) will be more damage (3700 total) than your projected calculations (3600). I'm pretty sure the correct formula will end up being less projected damage than your original calculation, but I'm not 100% sure.

    But yeah, I don't think a nerf to Elemental Boost would be a good idea: for reasons you have stated (who cares) but also that having nerfing Elemental Boost means that each precious SP spent late-game is worth even *less* (which, I suppose doesn't matter, because who cares) which makes it a completely dead skill during 4th job. That's very opposite of what is good (which is why the recent buff to make Burst Fire lower ranks *actually* outperform Double Shot is a nice change).

    But anyways, I would love Flamethrower and Ice Splitter to be stronger as an already-4th job Corsair. :D
  7. Doguu

    Doguu Pink Teddy

    Oct 26, 2017
    2:13 PM
    I think you're right on a lot of stuff but something like this in particular would remove progression. I'd definitely stick to buffing the scale and end values instead of the start, most classes don't expect immediate power spikes on job adv you shouldn't just allow ppl to put one point in everything and immediately have all the utility of the job adv. That kinda defeats the purpose of maple's SP system.

    If anything I wish grenade was a little more viable though, that skill is fun but it's dmg makes it pointless. I wouldn't be surprised if double shot did more dps even if you grenade under 6 enemies (sry off topic tho)

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