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Cast Avenger at melee range

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Jolly_Walker, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. Jolly_Walker
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    Jolly_Walker Chronos

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    JollyWalker
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    The title says it all. Let hermits and Night Lords cast avenger at melee range.

    Night Lords are the worst mobbing class in the game and even with this change I would believe that they will still be the worst. Most if not all Night Lords multiclient with their mage to carry them across all content in the game except at bosses.

    This would be a QOL improvement for solo card hunting, questing and farming for Night Lords that dont want to rely on a seperate mage client to do those task.

    The only "issue" i can think of is that this makes Night Lords potentially viable to grind at 7F, but even then they would probably get carried by their partner and have weaker eph than all other classes over there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
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  2. Diziple
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    Diziple Pac Pinky

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    HappyGuY
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    You must have played your NL wrongly.
     
  3. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Get the ninja storm ability and all your problems are gone, my friend

    Srsly the only reason NLs suck sometimes is because of the “we need range” thing
     
  4. OP
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    Jolly_Walker
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    Jolly_Walker Chronos

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    I have ninja storm at lvl15, it feels like crap tho, Usually find myself needing to cast it 3-4 time to push the mobs away. Maybe at level 30 the success rate is high enough to not feel like crap (I will go try it), but I don't think that skill is that accessible to max since skill points go to TT30, SC30, MW10 first, so earliest you can get it max is lvl153. Pre-153 mobbing ability being crap is still an issue.

    Edit: i forgot about shifter, so make that lvl 163
     
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  5. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    I actually thought of writing a thread about it my self.
    I think shadow star (/claw) nerf justify tweak improvements with other skills such as
    1.ninja storm- let it work from LV 1 (like rush/dragon breath and etc ) and increase the distance it pushes within levels..
    2. Improve DMG of avenger - the DMG is actually pathetic right now and another 20% will make it fair
    3. Ninja ambush - I think this skill got the be reworked -
    Option 1) convert it to a passive skill that hits with % of success when mobs got hit by the player (same as Venomous Star)
    Option 2 ) increase the range of it and add attack - current state with 30sb it attacks with 100% DMG which is again.. too weak for grinding.
    4. Kinda off topic - delete shadow meso and replace it with meso guard - yet don't make it as good as it is for shadowers.. but maybe it would be fair if it could tank like 20%of DMG ? Cause this skill rn is not even a meme skill (shadow meso)
    5. Shadow web - increase the range of it and make it at least 90% success. right now u got to almost stand on the mob and spam this skill untill it works... So again pointless..
    6. Melee distance for avenger - make NL able to grind and not rely on leeches - isn't that what we are always trying to achieve (as game inspection) ?? Kinda sad that NL need leech at whatever level.. (cause his only chance to get exp is bossing which is not achievable task for us as working people)
    You may not like everything I said but just keep in mind, NL is the only class that can't train and this state got to change.. this is just some option that came in my mind.. peace OnionSmart
     
    • Creative Creative x 4
  6. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    KurayamiLove/Nagrom/Amatista
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    When everything falls apart flash jump away. Also jump attacking helps since the claw melee range is kinda small (bowman is stupidly big and you will melee a mob from the other corner of the map). And yeah even if you get down a good way to grind around NL still suck and you better boss for exp or leech.
     
  7. Rapskal
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    Rapskal Chronos

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    With the best avoid, mobility, and damage (in some bosses), I think there's still a little too much incentive to pick night lords over other ranged jobs in this game. Fixing shadow star was a step in the right direction for balance, but if anything we could still use a nerf. I know night lord is the worst grinder in the game but I still feel like buffing our ability to grind is not warranted right now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  8. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Eiji
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    no , because it should work on boss maps too D:<
     
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  9. OP
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    Jolly_Walker
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    Jolly_Walker Chronos

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    The flash jumping away to kill mobs only works if you can clear the mobs before they reach you. In most cases, you need to aggro all the mobs on a platform and lure them to one side, else you are just flash jumping into more mobs. Also, if as much as one mob spawn on top of you, you're screwed and have to reposition again. I can only personally compare with my own I/L (yes i know it's one of the best 3rd job mobbing class in the game), which is able to clear 3x-5x the mobs my NL can using ice strike.

    Bowman has arrow rain which has 180% damage, can cast at melee range and covers a large area, Avenger which is also 180% damage can't be casted at melee range and only AOE in a straight line in front.

    But yeah, totally agree no matter how much you optimise, you'll still be better off leeching or camping anego.

    Update on ninja storm:
    I've got it to lvl30, the success rate is high enough that usually 1 cast and you can go back to damaging mobs. If you are unlucky then you might need 2 casts, but its uncommon. It's a great skill that helps with mobbing. Still it is very inaccessable at needing lvl 163+, and half investing in the skill is pointless at lvl15 its useless.

    Something like this is also a good way to improve the QOL of grinding on NL class.
     
  10. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    As mentioned before:
    Night Lord: class with by far the highest single target DPS in the game, which is achieved while standing still, holding a button and barely ever getting hit. High mobility, stable damage, best scaling, meso up buff.
    Cons: poor mobbing and solo grinding ability

    seems fair no?

    EDIT; avenger is 180% base damage, so 270% with shadow partner. Whereas arrow rain is 180%.
    Higher % damage at disadvantage of having to move, also seems fair.

    just go look for less mob heavy maps where the class does work well
     
  11. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    just keep in mind that NL has lower overall WA than archer. so if you compare dmg I bet 270% dmg of nl (180+90) vs 180%of archer - > archer will win.
    never check that though, if someone did, it will be nice to see numbers.
    after that been said, if you cant blast ur skill and FJ side to side to be able to cast your skill, dmg comparation is pointless..
     
  12. AioriaX
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    The only reason most NLs rely on leeching now is NOT because they can't mob, but because of the choices players make for heavy washing with 300-400 INT base.

    There is always a way to grind, and not just bossing. Of course bossing sounds more fun and efficient, but that does not take away the option of grinding.
    We tend to overlook class differences when we compare EPH and DPM. Other cleaver classes may have better EPH with mobbing, that is true but it doesn't mean NLs can't train/grind. You can still train, you'll just get a lower EPH compared to classes that are designed to kill multiple mobs more efficiently, but that is just the way it is. Just don't compare between classes as it will mislead your suggestions to make every class master of all trades.
     
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  13. OP
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    Jolly_Walker
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    Jolly_Walker Chronos

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    I really disagree with this statement. Even for a NL with base 4, it is so not worthwile to grind on it unless you are killing a boss, at least for me I cannot find a way to beat a solo 1hit petri self leech ~40m eph, at most can get a EPH of around 25m without being carried by others and at that point self leech at ulu2 as a MU mule is a better option.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. raysinz5
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    raysinz5 Capt. Latanica

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    I've been playing NL completely "incorrectly" because I've been grinding up until almost 16x with little bossing. There's actually many viable options pre 4th job for NL grinding besides CDs such as the censor map in shaolin. The mobs don't hit too high and it is very easy to pin and reposition in this map. Most importantly, the nature of the mobs allow you to hit them without punching them every so often. I've grinded here through the "hellish levels" which are 100-120 in just a couple of hours per level. The thing about avenger is the cast time is very quick, so when you actually manage to pin mobs down, you can clear them very quickly. Also, this ability can go through walls, unlike triple throw and lucky seven.

    I've personally tried 7F with the valentine's basket early 15x. Without ninja storm, I usually average upper 1X million xp/hr and peaking 20million xp/hr using avenger. Keep in mind I get bonus 1.1x xp due to basket. Half the time, I end up punching mobs/ repositioning because the giants are pretty thicc!

    This buff to avenger would drastically improve early game night lords/hermits, which is unnecessary. We can essentially grind at any map such as galloperas without any repercussions when normally we couldn't, or just hold down avenger and take a nap in a flat map. Also, it removes the only skill expression(haha ik NL and skill don't belong in the same sentence) that night lords need, which is reposition.

    This being said, one ability that should be buffed is venomous star. At higher levels, mobs get much tankier and you end up using avenger 10+ times just to clear a group of mobs. Extra damage from venomous star could be very beneficial to clear mobs. I think making the success rate 60% or increasing the damage by 1.5x would be pretty helpful. This ability is not maxed until much later, so I think buffing this ability would not be that overpowered.

    I think the most appropriate buff to avenger would just be flat out increasing the damage. An increase in 25% damage isn't going to magically make our class a viable grinding class. We just go from the worst grinding class to slightly less worse, but still the worst grinding class, which is okay. Making avenger castable in melee would actually be pretty busted in crowded maps like 7f, which I would not mind of course :p
     
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  15. jusin
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    jusin Red Snail

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    Do you have the exact name of the shaolin map you trained on? I’m very curious to try!
     
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  16. raysinz5
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    raysinz5 Capt. Latanica

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    I was a bit more funded than usual, had a 51 att skanda, 4 base int, dexless, coke pills. But if it takes me slightly less than 3 hours to level. You can definitely do it in 4 hrs if you have moderate funds + base int.
     
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  17. Kyshies
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    Kyshies Slimy

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    Do they have SE?
     
  18. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    Avenger as a 3rd job skill is actually better than other ranged classes mobbing considering you have shadow partner. Arrow rain/erruption deal 180% dmg at max level, the same skill damage as avenger. It’s probably mostly accurate to imagine avenger having 270% skill damage in comparison.

    Though bowmen get their own OP skills in 4th job that swing the pendulum dramatically in their favor, like SE and Piercing Shot. A minor buff to Avenger is probably warranted for this reason, as NLs don’t really get any fancy new tricks in comparison besides ninja storm, which requires at least 9 levels of SP to be even remotely consistent.

    As for the original suggestion though, I disagree that this is the way to buff it, as ninja storm does exist. That skill can use a buff instead to be usable earlier but this suggestion would just destroy a part of the NL toolkit and play style. No bueno
     
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  19. day4day
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    day4day Brown Teddy

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    u had HS mule on those trainings at China: Shaolin Temple Square? or just urself? i'll try to go there with my hermit, i have 120 base int, but i have HS mule and some good equips, i hope it goes well. Ty for the tips!
     
  20. raysinz5
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    raysinz5 Capt. Latanica

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    I didn't use an HS mule. You will eventually get the hang of repositioning/gathering mobs over time. If mobs are stuck behind terrain, use avenger since lucky seven/TT doesn't go through.
     
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