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Coke Pills... for NOT weapon attack

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Cak33, Apr 21, 2022.

Agree?

  1. Yup

    11 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. No

    10 vote(s)
    32.3%
  3. No - but remove/nerf cider or buff rage

    10 vote(s)
    32.3%
  1. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Probably gonna harvest lots of dislikes, but welps.

    Inspired by Endorphinss here: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/make-chocolate-basket-a-regular-daily-item.45318/

    To quote from him:
    and.... I agree. Its much easier to grind but the issues with it is well, obviously the basket is way too OP. HS itself isn't really the problem, but rather people just needs an excuse to grind.

    I think the benefits is quite straightforward
    I didn't do math. If implemented, it should be balanced accordingly to what staff deemed as balanced, and not the values I put below as example.

    Assuming a HB coke pill provides lvl 15 HB:
    Pros:
    1. Easier bossing, allows some runs to happen even without DK. For example, light washers may? prevent scarlion from eating them up. Also it may allow some people to start NT tour well, without a DK.
    Real-Cons:
    1. Well, sorry DK, you may go back to being a PB HB mule (for now)
    2. Sorry again DK, seems like 2-3 years from now, no one even wanna mule u anymore.
    3. 1-2 years from now, forums will have "wtf staffs lvl 15 HB is so weak, i DEMAND it to be buffed to lvl 30 HS" (aka same issue as posts trying to reduce AP Reset cost)
    Fake-Cons:
    0. None that I can think of

    Assuming a HS coke pill that provides lvl 15 HS:
    Pros:
    1. Finally have excuse to party up with friends and grind, finally I can find 7F partners with no HS, while insisting I won't make a HS mule :D
    2. Maybe more people will PQ from now? :thinking:
    Real-Cons:
    1. 1-2 years from now, forums will have "wtf staffs lvl 15 HS is so weak, i DEMAND it to be buffed to lvl 30 HS" (aka same issue as posts trying to reduce AP Reset cost)
    Fake-Cons:
    1. EXP too OP? Explanation: If lvl 15 HS is too OP, you should remove HS from this game. Coz HS mules in 7F are too OP :)
    2. PQ exp is too OP. Gurk wrote an essay on how PQ is too underwhelming in both rewards and EXP: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/make-pqs-great-again.45319/

    "What about haste and bless?"
    Head down to ludi and buy some speed pills and sniper pills :)

    "B..but there are xyz reasons on why this should not be implemented!!!"
    Unfortunately for you, I'm a very biased Hero.
    Coke Zero Pill = Level 20 Rage
    Cider = Level 30 Rage

    Alittle bit of math here
    1wa ~= 6 primary stats.
    5wa ~= 30 primary stats

    Don't forget that the hero's worth is less than 3k per 5 min.

    Do I hate cider? Emotionally, no. Logically (with my biased idiotic views), probably.
    I don't HT, and the highest boss I've fought is Verga. Heroes being the weakest class (by votes) have not affected my ability to join casual runs.
    I'm not suggesting a cider version of HS or HB. Just coke pill. Feel free to make them use as much slots as ciders.

    If you have xyz reasons to disagree with the suggestions, I'll most probably agree with you - only if you agree ciders should be removed from this game, gets nerfed, or rage gets some sort of buffs.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Great Work x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • Useful x 1
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  2. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    I think if some item like this is implemented this need get some high cost to not override the players who play on this job, but it can be a good idea!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. OP
    OP
    Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Can be a meso/p.coin sink too. If staff wants, they can make HS pills cost 3 p.coins or 5-10m, im for it - as long as I can afford O<-<

    Or just make them drop at off-meta maps, not sellable, inviting casuals to self-hunt them and risk allowing the quad-magers rule the market those pills
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Reminds me of the "decent" skills you could get on equips in later versions of maple. Like the "decent hyper body" that gave a 40% hb instead of the regular 60% but useable by any job as long as you had it on an equip.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  5. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    Like the basket from apq or gelt from cwk
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    it should be very nice if happen with hb (self hb, less %)
     
  7. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Without even looking deeper at the effects such an item would have, I believe it is obvious that the opportunity cost would have to be quite high (cost has even already been brought up). I do not think it should be sellable for any amount of meso, but rather require a hefty time commitment with limited to no multiclient potential to acquire.

    Even at 15 HB, that is still a 30% boost. Outside of further pot savings on %pots becoming more effective, there is no difference between a 30% boost and 60% boost if it reaches tank threshold. This would hasten the inevitable making even HB muling no longer needed, let alone put DKs out of jobs as they are judged solely by lackluster dpm in a single-target only meta.

    The only way that makes sense to me is if the time cost to attain this boost is far less efficient than bringing the dk. There are some potential benefits to outsourcing HB buff: dk can't be found, dk dies/dcs not totally destroying the run, etc., but they should in no way be a "good" replacement for the real thing. And I'm not convinced that there is a proper method to obtain that isn't excessively mulable or benefits the endgame players to an enormously skewed extent. The best idea I'd have would be to reward them from PQs to force content, but that might still be pretty muleable, or entice selling PQ service or something (might not be a bad thing?).

    Ultimately, the only way I'd sign on such a thing is if it were solely "use only in case of emergency", because they are super annoying to get, even for endgame players. Imagine if apples didn't exist for easy purchase, but instead every runner needed to farm cwk for gelts to run.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  8. OP
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    Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Fair for HB, but for HS, i'll disagree. I think in any scenario, having a dedicated HS buff is always better than using the pill.

    For HB pill, its juz an idea I had after reading your reply. Perhaps we can encourage super-annoying active plays. Receive level 15 HB for 5-10 seconds, and gets 100% HP heal at the same time. Not consumable by auto-pot pets. This should be annoying enough I guess?
     
  9. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    There are quite a few times having access to a slightly less effective HS and not needing to have/bring/worry about a bishop or hs mule is nice. Bishop dies, you still get nice exp. Oblivion4 is notably a hassle in terms of hs as it requires party swapping. And in lots of boss content bishop is only there for hs, res, *maybe* a shield. Vergamot is generally considered mule unfriendly if you don't have somebody manage the summons- we can just drop the hs for a buff mule that isn't likely to die to one-shot. I could even see some squads opting to zak without a bishop, taking a higher dpm class (and thus faster run) such as NL or even archmage.

    If I had instant access to 1.3x hs (level 15), I'd take it and run with it, bishops need not apply. Sure 1.5x (level 30) is better and should be used when easy/convienient (7f), but you can also claim that "real" hs is now worth only the difference between 1.3->1.5, not the entire 1.5 (i.e. still optimal, but nerfs HS overall on a class which struggles to find an identity outside of HT/skeles).

    We're already in an age where buffing/support classes are on life support due to muling-only dpm/multiclient-ability matters. I don't wish to further expedite this effect with removing even the multiclient from multiclienting (unless it finally gets multiclient classes the rebranding they need).

    This would trivialize HP healing
    As the HB pill would already be a sunk cost to use, mid-washed classes that hardly get hit to begin with could just use the pill to satisfy their hp need while rebuffing themselves. A super short duration makes multiclient attacking a bit more difficult, but that still isn't an issue if the hb mule/dk slot is forgone altogether. We only have to turn to the MM to see what pressing a button every 5 seconds is like. Annoying in use doesn't help support classes nearly as much as annoying to acquire in the first place.
     
  10. Lucidcat
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    Lucidcat Mixed Golem

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    Nerf all over-20wa-pots and increase the time limitations of end game bosses. High attack pots significantly increase the dpm gap among all classes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Buyable in a store is probably too strong, but it can still be implemented in such a way to leave DKs with some copium for years to come. It could be implemented in such a way for it to be a reward for class based daily quests. Dark Knights get quests for HB consumables, Bishops get HS, and can even go so far as to include SE and SI from their perspective classes since nothing is beyond muling and so we can finally enjoy the 6 NL party meta.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  12. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    Aren't DKs on their last breaths of copium in these dying days already? Tbh just take HB from our tired hands and give us something else OnionBlush3 - a doomer DK not even level 150
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  13. OP
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    Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    The only-two runs I went Vergamot with has lots of mules, and the bishops were muled too in both runs, hence I have the impression that they are mule friendly.

    Zak, i don't think so. the priority to clear zak fast isn't that required - the EXP matters more. Additionally if you mega to join zak as an archmage - even with 155 levels yr gonna get rejected
    More realistic will probably be PB imo.

    To re-quote myself:
    Back to the topic:
    This is not my intention on how it should be used. Have these HB pills take one pill per use slot, just like ciders. With them only lasting 5 seconds, you are forced to pot by predicting an attack from bosses.
    With maxed out used slot in cash shop, one only gets 56 use slots. Recalling from memory, BMs uses shit tons of potions during HT right? and NL uses shits tons of throwing star packs.

    I'm not sure how tight their use slots are, but considering ciders are used, I believe its very tight.
     
  14. OP
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    Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Wait, i thought this is the only way to play?
    (Puts SE mule on party 2)
     
  15. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    I/L Arch Mage
    Maybe it could be set up so that it doesn't stack with attack pots. That would make it a trade off in bossing situations.
    The main issue I see with this is that it would be a huge buff for Archmages, who rely heavily on HS mules and MP washing.
     
  16. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    Nerfed HS pot is honestly such a great idea. The difference between single client players and multiclient players is far too big right now, to the point that its sometimes better to solo grind if you don’t have HS. This will further encourage party play without completely upending the utility of priests, bishops, and HS mules.

    The HB pot would be a little more tricky to balance, but I think it’s a good idea too. It could make dispels more trivial as you can react yourself to being DPed, which might be a good or a bad thing. Either way, it allows for low-wash and unwashed characters to try some bossing without being attached to a DK at the hip.
     
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  17. Drayen
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    Drayen Mushmom

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    Is there a reason why Rage won't be changed to stack with coke/cider?
    BTW, I am not suggesting 20att+20att. But what if e.g. max rage could stack +3att?

    Also, we can't forget another class has the same issue, to a lesser extent:
    DKs and their meme blood.
     
  18. OP
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    Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Its the mechanics of MapleStory itself. weapon attack buffs cannot stack with each other, just like how apple overrides rage

    Well, at least they get to participate bossing as glorified HB mule so, i wont acknowledge (yet) :(
     
  19. Drayen
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    Drayen Mushmom

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    Does rage needs to add att? It could add something else instead.
    The question is, what could it add?

    From the quick research I did, this is the official statement I found on the issue.
    Since it's kinda old, it may or may not reflect Nise's current opinion on the matter:
    (source: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?posts/248407)
     
  20. OP
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    Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Every party buff = muleable
    SEs are being muled, HB are being muled, HS are being muled. ALL at bossing levels. Heck im sure even echo is being muled in some scenarios.

    If u look at all the buffs, only rage is made into a pot and hence because of 1) cider's existance and 2) lack of cleave in meta-bosses, heroes now ranked the worst class (in opinion)
    I know you are not nise, but I would like to challenge this, on what makes a party buff, and what doesn't. Rage affects everyone right? Lets say all the buffs now only affects the caster (self buff, not party buff), the usage of rage is unaffected (due to ciders), but all the other party buffs are. With this in mind, why even bother allowing rage to buff party members?

    Anyways, thats not the main purpose of this thread.
    I just want HS pills to make it easier to find people to grind with (as shown sucessful with valentine baskets) and HB pills to easier fight scarlion with my low-washed buddies, don't want them to die due to my accidental rush in the wrong direction. And I'm trying to use the opinion that rage = useless, to drive this idea as a mildly logical excuse :)
     

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