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Criticism & Suggestion.

Discussion in 'Rejected' started by OutOfCure, Feb 16, 2022.

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  1. OP
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    OutOfCure Slime

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    Thank you, I hope he's at a better place now, please keep him in your prays and thoughts
     
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  2. halfwaysleet
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    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

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    I believe that public ban appeals could be a positive thing for this server since it would bring more accountability and less resentment from certain players. If bans are advertised to the entire server I think the server should also get to see the accused's side of the story.
    If the person appealing is already not able to see the evidence stacked against them, then making ban appeals public once the investigation has ended wouldn't really expose rule breakers to information about how data is collected.
     
  3. Fabfresh
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    Fabfresh Blue Snail

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    The thing with RWT and like back in this era alot of people bought mesos, is I feel people have the wrong idea. The act of using your money to save time, or vice versa isn't disgusting. In fact trading money for convenience is a common practice in all aspects of life. The issue here and why it's important to keep banning and without prejudice is that they threaten the very server. All the love poured in by dev and the countless hours of grind of all its players. Even if its done only 1 time out of ignorance, it is incredibly selfish and unacceptable.

    All justice systems will run into some margin of error, this is just inevitable. I feel like if your appeal is heard and if you're back online, you are a living proof of your ignorance. I dont see how people would look at you differently, in fact, you are even more guiltless than people who were never banned. Your case was studied and proven non guilty.

    The only flaw I see is the shame server announcements and the megas that follow. To me this feels very primitive, kind of like public execution. I feel this is probably done to discourage people from ever thinking to RWT or hack but surely there could be a better way. If as a community we like this system anyways i agree that a public unban announcement seems fair as compensation. However for playing on other game's private servers i find our server wide chat to be a lil too unmoderated, as in people shitting on some1 publicly after a ban shouldnt be tolerated. But maybe that's just a result of the system and would require additional moderation.

    Maybe a wall of shame on discord/forums where people who have been banned are exposed, but also removed if proven falsely accused, would serve just as much as a warning. However this would be more easily accessible information for people to correct their views on some1 who may have been formerly banned.
     
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  4. halfwaysleet
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    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

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    A blacklist / shamelist would only promote more hate towards individuals, as evidenced in royals, since it's its main purpose is to publicly expose people. It just stirs up more drama and resentment
     
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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Maybe a running count of those who have been caught and banned for RWT would be enough to deter some people from buying. Sellers only have power if there are enough people willing to buy, and people will continue to buy mesos for various reasons. New players probably look to buy to skip past the grind fest that is meso accumulation, only to be met with the time-gate that is HP washing anyways.

    To me, it seems like the recent uptick in RWT-related bans only serve as an indicator of peoples' dissatisfaction with the current state of the economy - especially when seeing old, familiar names appear on the list of blue texts alongside the slew of irrelevant ones. I'd hazard a guess that they're not buying to cheat the game or skip past the hard part since they've already played through most of that. They're buying to keep up with the failing economy.

    Disclaimer - I'm not justifying RWT in any format since at the end of the day, there really is nothing to justify - it's cheating. I'm just trying to understand what might drive more and more people to RWT as the answer to their problems and if there is anything staff or the community could do to facilitate a better path away from it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    I don't see comparing the economy as any reason to justify RWT. It happens in every server; new servers, existing servers, 1x hardcore servers, etc. I am lurking all over the place, know of pretty much every RWT site and a couple of underground ones, and I can tell you that RWT is pretty much existing in every server, and actually heavier on post big bang servers since they are already very pay2win usually by natural.

    Likewise, disclaimer however that this does not mean I am saying the economy is flawless (lol), but "people RWT because of shit economy" is just not it. MapleLegends remains a low rate server and for that reason alone people want things to be faster, by buying mesos and or items.
     
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  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I mean is it not apparent even without specific numbers? It's a simple process of logic. We as players can see a growth in RWT bans while the server's population has been in steady decline which means these RWT buyers aren't entirely consisted of new players. It's been established that RWT occurs everywhere, sure - people with money tend to value their time. But what is causing people who have already spent thousands of hours in the game to now look towards RWT as their viable solution?

    Perhaps their reasons are the same as those who are fresh in this server and just want to skip ahead. If I had to take a guess, it's most likely not.

    Like I said, I'm not justifying RWT in any format. It's a cop out move and perma bans are well deserved. I'm just trying to see if there is a root problem that needs addressing that could better help the growing RWT problem.
     
  8. OP
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    OutOfCure Slime

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    It seems like you speak about the subject with so confidence that you didn't even push any point of this conversation forward, most of what you said is just agreeing with my initial points which is cool, but leads us nowhere, replacing one wall of ban text with another yield the same poor result that we currently have, not to mention that by moving it to discord it can be taken down at any moment like what happened to the previous server, making this documentation system flawed.

    Idc about people trolling or throwing some random messages in here, but this kind of message is absolutely the worst one. You just criticized an entire server while providing no value to progress this conversation, shitting on others' work, comparing it to other gamers / how the real world works to some extent, this is not the way to approach this situation whatsoever.

    By opening this thread I want to challenge the process we have, we have GMs who work and have a good judgmental call for the most part, its time to capitalize over it and create something that can be more equal and fair for all parties involved.
     
  9. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    I do think people have legitimate grievances about staff transparency in general. Obviously there's so much we're not entitled to know, but it is frustrating that it's like pulling teeth to even get a 'we acknowledge this and it's being discussed internally' or 'we are discussing changes regarding x' a lot of the time. I've seen this be slightly better in the last few months, but Pink Bean feedback and the state of the economy are good recent examples.

    KimberlyKimberly has there ever been any thought given to appointing someone to some kind of Community Manager position? I've been playing private servers for some another game recently and it's kind of insane how player satisfaction shifts when there's a clear line of communication and some kind of feedback, though I acknowledge that's harder to do given the size of MapleLegends
     
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  10. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    You need to remember that when we ban RWTers we ban all their accounts - you see a big wall of bans, but 1 person may have a lot of accounts, so it may be seen as a lot. Also, RWT ban waves happen from time to time, and I don't think this has changed over time. It's just that sometimes we find a major seller, so we find a lot of customers, thus more bans. Sometimes we find an older RWT seller, which also leads to a said person having a lot of customers.

    I personally do not think RWTing has become worse. It's just that we get better tools and logs over time, which also allow us to find more RWTers. But let's not go too far off-topic here since I don't think it really relevant if its worse or better, the problem remains that RWT does exist, and that's something that never can be completely stopped, and even if you give constant warnings in-game as well as other places, people still get baited and glued into those "trust us its undetected" kind of sales and take the bait.

    A thing that is quite on-topic though is that there's also another thing you could take into effect. As soon one person admits to being guilty to have bought mesos from x seller, it's very likely the other customers from the very same seller is guilty too. Of course, not all of them will admit that obviously, but it's a huge factor if already 1 person does.
     
  11. Fabfresh
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    Fabfresh Blue Snail

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    Hey, Im glad you see that I somewhat agree with you. At least in the sense that I think it sucks for your friend who's allegedly innocent to feel like he's been slighted by the system and permanently sullied. That's why I proposed a wall and I'm aware of the recent issues with discord that why I also said forums. The current announcement you only see if you were online at the time and it just spreads rumors. Like whoever saw it tells his friend soandso is RWT and that creates that feeling of unfairness as even if you're unbanned, people still believe you were at fault.

    The reason I may come off as non contributing is that I'm also not agreeing with making changes to the current investigations and ban waves. Wanting transparency from the dev teams and fair trial would both slow the process and potentially expose methods used for uncovering the guilty party. I want justice for your friend but i also want to keep catching the people whop put our server at risk of being closed. It seems to me like you may be using what happened to your friend as a mean to push another agenda? You arent satisified with proving your friend is innocent but rather you want to revamp a system that is more often accurate than not, in favor of the exceptions. I feel like compensating the exceptions rather then rewarding the tons of guilty party with a trial would be healthier for the server.
     
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  12. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    what about if perma-ban to sellers and trade-ban to buyers?
     
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  13. OP
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    OutOfCure Slime

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    I'm not sure why you are pushing / projecting this narrative on me when I was very explicit with the meaning of this post in my last message and even in some messages before, its not about 'serving justice to my friend', the only reason why I mentioned him is to approach this conversation in good faith, to make sure people realize and understand how my thought process came to be. His innocent or guilty is regardless of my biased opinion about his current ban situation, what it did, is it gave me the option to look at the process and made me want to change it.

    Let me repeat myself one more time -
    By opening this thread I want to challenge the process we have, we have GMs who work and have a good judgmental call for the most part, its time to capitalize over it and create something that can be more equal and fair for all parties involved.
     
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  14. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    I agree to most of what you said except the quoted part of your post, but I believe that having a 'wall of shame' isn't the way to go either on discord/guilded and/or forums.
     
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  15. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    Personally my take away from these threads is "my friends got banned and instead of letting them take the blame, I will blame the server, the GMs, pserver community, etc..."
    Opening ban appeals or disclosing how GMs catch them will not stop false bans from happening. It will just cause drama and give RWTers more sophisticated ways to avoid bans.
    Look, RWT is risky business. People don't do it by accident, they know what they're getting into. Take the L and move on.

    This is an interesting idea but somewhat foiled by people RWTing leech and carries.
     
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  16. OP
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    OutOfCure Slime

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    If that's your take over this specific thread, I would say you have done a poor job at reading my first post or any of the other messages I posted here. Instead of reading into the subject and looking into the reasoning behind this post, you decided on sharing your opinion based on past threads and carrying your emotions into this one.

    I walked people who decided to read the first post thu my thought process and how it came to be while sharing things in good faith.
    So let me repeat myself once more -
    By opening this thread I want to challenge the process we have, we have GMs who work and have a good judgmental call for the most part, its time to capitalize over it and create something that can be more equal and fair for all parties involved.

    You are talking about people who legitimately got ban, which I have no issue with. I'm talking about the power dynamic that we currently have when a player gets banned and how unfair it is for both parties to base a discussion over someone's years of investment into the game in a forum post where only one of the parties has all of the power while at the same time there is 0 accountability for people who got wrongly banned and have to see their name published in a very primitive way to the entire server, defaming their name on the way.
     
  17. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    One way is to allow public viewing at appeal section for RWT.

    This also helps to justifiy to the community that whoever is being banned is beyond reasonable doubt. As a human, you are going to trust your friends more than some random GM. The GM is just the almighty presence with "Trust me, I got everything logged." Then banned and you are left with people questioning, How could this be. He is not that type of person. You then try to discord the person and ask for screenshot on what exactly happened in the appeal and blah blah blah. It just left a bad taste in everyone's mouth when it happened to someone who matters. With a public appeal section it would help the GM to command a better understanding among the players that rwt is indeed judged at a beyond reasonable doubt level.
     
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  18. OP
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    OutOfCure Slime

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    Yup, 100%, thank you for emphasizing my point.

    If you are the person who got banned and unbanned - you might be looked down upon by other members of the community and it might even demotivate you from keeping playing the game which is fully justify.
    If you are a GM - You can get flamed by people that rather push their emotions all over the place, feeling overly demanding while not knowing the full story.

    I concluded my thread with "If we advocate for fairness and strive for fairness, let's all be fair to one another." this would be in regard to both GMs and players alike, if we want to be fair we also need to take responsibility for our GMs.

    This current system is rather toxic and unfair for both parties no matter how you spin it.
     
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  19. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Who do you know got banned and unbanned and got looked down by it? I got falsely autobanned multiple times in the past and no one ever even brings that kind of stuff with me after an hour, never mind look down on me.
     
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  20. OP
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    OutOfCure Slime

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    Using your own personal arbitrary experience to view a wide range of people who have been in your shoes does not mean its the reality for other people who shared the same experience as you.
    I'm not going to drop names, but I have seen instances where people don't want to associate themselves with others who got banned and unbanned.

    Edit: Let me just add on top of things, that even if you decide to keep on going and playing after you got unbanned, others might not as they will feel highly unmotivated which is another big issue since it thin the community we have as it is.
     
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