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Cru and Captain racist caricatures

Discussion in 'Rejected' started by Kevin Truong, Oct 4, 2020.

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  1. MoonBunny
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    MoonBunny Blue Snail

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    5:37 PM
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    I think this is a more complicated problem than you think it is. If they simply change the color tone of the mobs someone else could just as easily feel offended by whatever they change it to. There's no easy answer to this problem, and as someone else mentioned it's probably better off for you to not feel offended by 2 little sprites in a mushroom game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  2. Giltine
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    Giltine Red Snail

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    I agree.
    I am sick of this mage on black wyvern violence.
    These atrocities have gone on too long.
    Wyvern Lives Matter!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Bonk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Never expect this topic to take off so much.

    Some of you all might be easily offended and sensitive to certain stuffs.
    But you need to remember that majority of us is perfectly ok with this, because we understand its context and meaning behind it.
    Certain things we can have a discussion and agree it is not really right (regarding those obviously intended naming)
    But don't expect us to follow your standard for everything else.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    Like Skuire, I have also always thought they were some kind of fish lmao.

    This is really a fine example of American virtue signaling to me
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    8:37 PM
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    The monster book says theyre demons so it makes sense to me that they are black.

    Kinda wonder what you think of all the monsters in singapore and malaysia.
     
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  7. Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Let's cancel Neckson on twitter. Singapore, Boat Quay and Malaysia do not have black slime monsters IRL
    i am shaking rn how could they do this
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    5:37 PM
    If we're talking about an art revamp I couldn't find any on Kru and Captain but, I did find these
    Headless Horseman bbb.png
    Headless Horseman New.png

    Sadly no Bigfoot :/

    Anyways besides headless horseman.. back to what this thread is about.

    If you noticed the monsters in Herb Town are all Roots or Jars, and strangely enough.. an Alligator?

    Yams, beets, parsnips, turnips, rutabagas, carrots, yuca, kohlrabi, onions, garlic, celeriac, horseradish, daikon, turmeric, jicama, Jerusalem artichokes, radishes, and ginger.

    So this being said Kru and Captain could be any root.. its not a racist thing at all..


    This here though, is kinda triggering me not gonna lie..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. emoimo
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    emoimo King Slime

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    5:37 PM
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    To everyone saying "haha we should cancel dark wyverns because they have a dark theme" where has anybody suggested that the dark color palette is the issue? The issue is the combination of all factors: dark skin, humanoid, donuts for lips, villain. Very reminiscent of racist cartoons which have long been used to mock black people. Here's an example:
    https://www.ferris.edu/_resources/l...ster/c926b373-1218-4881-a012-f7d7e07480b8.jpg

    The issue is not that the mob has dark skin or that the mob is based off of black people. The issue is that it is based off of stereotypes which have a racist history. I understand that this is an international server and not everybody has background knowledge on this subject. But I just wanted to try to provide a bit of context so people can stop mocking OP for bringing up what I think is a reasonable concern.

    As for whether I think this should be changed, I don't have a strong opinion. I'm not opposed to changing the color palette. I'm okay with leaving it the way it is. Nobody is perfectly virtuous; Neckson is no exception. There are racist elements in many things that we love and enjoy. It is possible to enjoy those things while being aware that they are racist. Either way I hope the MapleLegends community can be more open-minded in the future.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  10. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    So there seems to be a bit of confusion going on what my 'Disappointment' reply's opinion was to.

    It was in regard to this topic as a whole, but also because I still think it's a troll topic. If it wasn't a troll topic than OP should have worded his posts way more serious than the extreme use of ! and using :^) which is an emote used to troll people on 4chan before it became mainstream.

    The last patch I made a change that changed Blacklist to Blocklist. I did this change because I am aware that people in 2020 are heavily deeply looking into things from old games or old festivals, or things, in general, to be picky about. I didn't change Blacklist because I am offended by it myself but changed it to prevent myself from getting a suggestion to change it which then cause a shithole of a thread (already happened at Royals).

    So to no surprise, when a similar topic (this one) appeared, it caused a shithole. As usual, I was right, which at this point is no surprise anymore (hey let me have some ego too once in a while).

    Now I am trapped in this situation where I am forced to make a change to these mobs, else I am a racist. That's 2020. So now I got the option to either accept this suggestion and make minor changes to these mobs or be called a racist for denying it. If I accept this suggestion and let minor changes be made, people will hunt for more mobs or areas to be changed and soon enough we have a custom skin pack.

    This is what I tried to prevent by already changing blacklist. I failed, and have to deal with it now anyway.
     
    • Like Like x 5
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    You guys are leaving out the main factor that denotes blackface - racism.

    Blackface is racist at its core because the purveyors were hailing supremacy of its own 'normalized' imagery by depicting the 'other' with garish, exaggerated features. The act itself was designed to humiliate and dehumanize the 'other' - similar to the practice of clowning. But in this instance, there was a motive of racial discrimination, and it created a clear racial dichotomy. It was racist.

    Now I'm going to say something you might not agree with.
    The act of painting your face black isn't racist.

    If a little kid is given a black crayon and happens to draw a cartoon character with a completely black face, is this considered blackface?
    Is a kid painting their face be a black cat for Halloween black face?
    Is people taking selfies of themselves with their black charcoal face masks blackface?

    What makes blackface/the act of painting a face black wrong is the racism behind it. Not the other way around.

    This begs the question - if the Cru/Captain characters were designed with no intention of perpetuating racism or racial stereotypes, does it even qualify as blackface?

    We all understand there is a racist history behind blackface. I don't think anybody here is defending its practice. However, the question then becomes - how do we even know if this is racist or not without knowing the creator's explicit intent?
     
    • Agree Agree x 16
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    No. End thread.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Althariisa
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    Althariisa Slimy

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    You arent on the need to change anything, you see most of us agree that its not necessary the change what's suggested on this thread. also we want to preserve maple in this prime how it is, not changing any aspect for some ppl that are picky or offended by just a 2 single sprites. Relax. just pass by this niche and nothing happened. if you think deeply on this small things that doesnt have a real importance you will miss the real ones that really needs to be looked. and indeed do something you can regret.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  14. emoimo
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    emoimo King Slime

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    Something can be racist without it intentionally being made to be racist. If a kid watched Breakfast at Tiffany's and then drew a slanty-eyed nerdy Asian kid that "no speak Engrish" that would still be racist, even if the kid had no intent of being racist. The kid sees media of Asians being nerdy, submissive, effeminate, and then the kid thinks that's really how people are. This is the problem with media spreading harmful stereotypes. It perpetuates those stereotypes and normalizes a depiction that affects how people view the world.

    I suspect some Korean artists with no knowledge of blackface made these designs, probably because they saw stuff like Mr. Popo or the Pokemon Jynx with exaggerated dark skin and lips and they thought that was an okay way to depict black people. I doubt the designers meant any harm. Still, the Captain and Kru designs are similar to something racist, even if unintentionally.

    I am in no way calling Kimmy a racist if ML staff chooses not to make this cosmetic change! I haven't seen anybody insinuate that Kimmy is a racist anywhere in this thread.

    The similarities to racist caricatures with Captain/Kru are subtle, and even if changed in ML, the original design obviously still exists in many other places. Because of those reasons, I think the harm done by the design is quite low, and I don't feel strongly about changing the sprite. That being said, I also think changing the sprite is harmless. I don't understand why people are being so defensive about the Captain/Kru design. Does anyone actually have a strong, personal attachment to the original design? Does changing the color palette hurt you in any way?

    Also for the record I personally think changing the word "blacklist" is unnecessary. The term has no racial origin (to my knowledge) and has a well-understood meaning. But if people wanted to change it, I also don't have an issue with it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  15. Scylla
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    Scylla Orange Mushroom

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    I can't believe this thread is going this strong, I totally thought this is a bad troll too and nobody would seriously point this out as an actual thing that's offending them. But I guess the times are different now and people search for things that they can complain about because they are bored or think its funny.
    (Sorry if you are seriously offended by this, but personally I think that's a bit too sensitive and there will be millions of things that will offend you in this case.)

    Back to the topic: I always thought they are just some monster in the maple world and never pictured them as a racist caricature and I don't think a change is necessary, as it would open up the door for 100 similar threads about different things in the maple world. Seems like a waste of Staff's time to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  16. Gang
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    Gang Timer

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    I completely agree with OP and its about time we fully cleanse this server from all racist remarks.

    After we cleanse all black (face) monsters its time we look at the next worse thing: The racist scrolling system

    [​IMG]
    Let's start with the white scroll. This scroll can do no wrong. It will just make sure your slots will not be wasted. This virtue signals that white can do no wrong.

    [​IMG]
    Now look at the dark scroll. When you read the text you know this scroll was based on racism. 'it blows up 50% of the time if it fails'. this is clearly a remark to skinned people doing certain acts of terror.

    This inbalance in the scrolling system is triggering many people to no end, and its time for Maplelegends to take a stance. Are you either a racist or will you listen and act on all our demands. There is no inbetween.

    My suggestion: We introduce a new scroll that has the same effect as a white scroll: The black scroll.

    [​IMG]

    This scroll will have the exact same effect as white scroll, which signals true equality.

    The dark scroll tho? We will make them blue, the color of the evil corporation also known as the police.

    [​IMG]

    They are the evil of this world and this will clearly be represented with the booming chance, which has the same odds as them commiting crimes to our fellow citizens.

    As a private server hosting a 15 year old game which was created by an asian country which had deep understanding of our holy american culture that dictates what and what isnt right, we need to take a stance against these true acts of racism. This thread will answer once and for all if the ML staff is racist or not.
     
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  17. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    Oh man this is too good
     
  18. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    After more thinking I will now conclude this thread.

    First of all, I know I am trapped in the middle, which is usually the case for topics like these. Either option doesn't satisfy everyone, and in the end, I'll be the one that gets all the criticism, since I make the final decision on this topic that somehow appeared.

    Unfortunately, I am the type of person that still try to make everyone happy anyway, so here's going to be my take.

    Here's a sprite dump on the offending mobs:
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/750961659501084722/762371258461454356/Captain.zip
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/750961659501084722/762595120625090600/Cru.zip

    Now it's up to those offended by the sprites, to make an alternative version of it. How you guys will do it I leave it all up to you. Once you all concluded one that isn't an MS-paint re-skin, I'll make it ML compatible and offer a custom .img file for you to put in your MapleLegends folder to change the skins.

    Please do not do this on the forums but on Discord or something.

    I won't change this officially due to following reasons

    1) It creates a can of worms of people hunting down on more subtle hints of things in a similar area, forced to accept those too else it's unfair
    2) People that are here to play an unofficial MapleStory server that represents itself from the 2008 era (although modern MS never made changes either as of right now) will notice those changes, and feel it's not as authentic, or even questioning why we are the only server that made such changes

    My honest tip for you is to go to the authors of these sprites, which would be Neckson, and complain about this very same thing on their official forums, and see what they will say.

    There's also this disclaimer someone pointed out to me from WB. I agree with them:
    [​IMG]

    Do note that any future in-game conflicts about this, such as SMEGA's or mocking people in general, or any sort of way to tease either side about this may be muted or banned if continued.

    Hopefully with that concluded we can move on, so we can focus again on nerfing your favourite job and skills.
     
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