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CWKPQ Boss stage change

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Raso, Jul 25, 2023.

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  1. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    EDIT: Reworded some stuff and added additional arguments to make it clearer. Before this the post was a bit... badly worded which mightve given people the wrong impression.

    Hola, another scuffed suggestion which I think might have some merit to it...

    Ok, so for (almost) everyone that runs CWKPQ, the bossstage is a long, long boring snoozefest right? It takes forever cuz the bosses are tanky af. To what purpose? Wasting time I guess. Now what do I propose?

    Lower the HP of all CWKPQ bosses, lower the timer for this stage and lower the exp of these bosses proportionally. On top of that, lower the rewards from bonus stage as appropriate (or keep it the same) and (re)move some of the archer room mobs.

    If all the above are for example halved (or whatever % would be appropriate), the stage itself would not be different in terms of exp/hour. The requirements in terms of squad composition and strength would remain the same, not leading to further increasing sweat factor. Furthermore the "challenging" aspect of CWKPQ would remain intact. It would also become less of a highly timeconsuming thing, thus easier to fit into daily life on an adult.

    The main engagement in CWK comes from the pre-boss stages and honestly, the pirate pinning. The boss stage itself has relatively speaking no engagement other than for the pirate pinner. So, to further illustrate the issue I will list some comparisons.

    -CWK is engagement-wise most similar to krex, maybe zakum.
    -Duration-wise it is most similar to HT, Auf, PB.
    -Profit-wise it blows all the other content (except PB and the lucky HT) out of the water

    So what is the issue really? CWK is too long for its dull battle and has a too high profit when you compare it to other content. It is basically the NL amongst the heroes. My suggestion is not to straight up nerf it, but to rebalance and tweak it so its more in line with the rest of the game. In fact, the lower duration would overall lead to more profits for most people, as it frees up time to do more content.

    So why not just reduce the signs? Because this would effectively double the number of runs for a number of people, making it twice as profitable as it already is. It would still remain unbalanced and as the comparisons show, out of line with other content. It would make it more accessible for people with (almost) no signs, yes, but that would be the only good thing about it really.

    But what about the market???

    The market wont significantly change from this. The scrolls from CWK are already farmable outside, and even easier to obtain that way. Generally the market adapts to the content, it should not be the other way round. The typical CWK bonus items (BFC, Specs, cheese, gelts and now also coins) can all remain the same. These are, with the exception of coins, not farmable outside CWK and thus should remain unchanged or perhaps even slightly buffed.


    The pros:

    -Less time lost to holding 1 button for the exact same result
    -Due to the former, more time to do more/other content and
    -Easier for people with shorter timewindows to join CWKPQ
    -More balanced to be in line with other content

    The cons:
    -The lower exp gain per run (tho BT could choose so leave that intact)
    -Less badges from cleave side due to indirectly reduced spawns (perhaps buff droprate outside cwk to compensate)
    -Can lead to more runs in a day, which might make the bonus stage being disproportionally good
    -Needs lower rewards because they are in fact, disproportionally good.


    I am well aware that for some classes CWK is more engaging than for others. But unless you really, really need to keep your eyes glued to your HP bar, or you have to pin the pirate, theres little to no attention required during the entire thing. As this isnt a suggestion that purely applies to the endgame sweaty 3-4mans, but also the larger lower level groups and the casuals, I do not consider the multiclienting as part of the engagement.

    What do you guys think? Bad idea? Good idea but needs tweaks?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2023
    • Disagree Disagree x 8
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    in my experience what made the runs slow was when people dont know how to do (or be afk) in the frists stages, but a rework can work nice too
     
  3. ThuMay26
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    ThuMay26 Slime

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    Halve the archer room mob hp too please ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    what makes cwkpq long is 2 reasons:
    1. archer room
    2. pirate boss

    In my experience as a cleave that goes only in 4 man parties, cleave bosses and mage usualy take around 25~30 minutes.
    The fact that only one person can hit pirate boss, and it has to be a se most of the times, adds an additional 10~15 min to every boss run. If another ranged starts hitting it, it ONLY shoots sharks which is hella dumb. If a cleave starts hitting it, it will start using iframe attacks.
    Pirate boss is my ONLY reason in all cwkpq's ive ever done that boss rooms takes more than it should. I think i can count on one hand the number of SE players that managed to not stall the entire boss battle. Not blaming SE players for being bad, its just a horrible boss design.

    An addition to that, archer room takes alot of time for most casual non godly SE players. I personally believe that moving 3~4 of the mobs from archer room to warrior room will make so much sense. All the other rooms are a joke compared to archer's. It can add an additional 10 minutes to the entire run on bad cases. For most of the party that room is just a "stay afk" experience until archer is done, even if you are completing multiple rooms with other classes.

    Usualy im all in favor of making runs less of a time sink, but in this case halfing the hp and lowering exp rates is not the solution imo. I want to add that cwkpq is a super profitable content, and making it easier might cause nerfing reward rates and i dont want my favorite content to be damaged.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 5
  5. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    couldnt disagree more. if the team has a decent pirate pinner (and decent cleaves+mage pinner), boss run should take 35min TOPS,. halving the rewards on this content will just be a cleave class nerf, the only thing this server dosent need.
     
  6. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I mean the same could be said for every boss in the game but it's a slippery slope. I'm not opposed to bosses taking less time to do, but it's not very true to the old school maple feeling. Some games have short but engaging boss fights where you fight for your life. This game has long boss fights where you optimize damage and even small optimizations make a big difference over a long fight. A short and unengaging fight with no need to optimize because it'll be over soon anyways doesn't seem fulfilling to me personally. Making the fight engaging isn't really possible with the limitations of the game engine either.

    Tho tbf i'm a Corsair player, I have a lot more room to optimize my gameplay than other classes. I understand that CWKPQ is notoriously afk for cleavers.

    If only more boss fights could feel like the Demon King (without the unavoidable lean beams)
     
  7. OP
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    Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    100% agree. Horntails duration for example is perfectly fine because you will always be moving and optimizing dependant on cancels and the bosskills. Same for Auf and a few NT bosses, Zak to some extent. The CWK bossstage is very unengaging when it comes to that as theres no variation in their skills, no DPs, cancels or anything. If adding that was an option, Id prefer that but as you mentioned, its limited by the game engine.
     
  8. OP
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    Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Yes it is super profitable (maybe a little too much honestly), and my suggestion doesnt necesserily change that. My suggestion also does not mean CWK will be easier to complete, as mentioned it would be proportionally, meaning youll still need the same firepower to clear (half the HP in half the time is essentially identical).

    That said, not everyone should be balanced around the very endgame players and the highly optimized 3-4man runs. Lower levels do run this content too, and with more players to split with. They too, need to be considered in balancing.
     
  9. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    This is a 2.5 hr content that requires 12 signs and a long boss battle (which i personally dont consider it afk either for pirate and for cleaves). i dont see how its too much profitable when considering all of that.
    The things i said, imo, is actually balancing the pq around everyone's behalf and not endgamers. moving archer mobs to warrior room benefits mostly the lower level parties. making pirate boss an actuall playable boss for other classes beside SE, is beneficial to all players.
    halving the HP and time required is not a fix to any of these problems
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    disagree. i had rather a longer boss with good rewards than a shorter boss with poorer rewards. reminder that u need to shift ur char and mules to the sign up page.
    another thing is the market perturbations as a result, which often leads to merchants winning and the rest of the non merchants losing out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Nightshadow

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    Raso pls no CWKPQ exp is one of the only things I got without the HP for HT
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    I have mixed opinion on this

    1. CWKPQ boss room is boring time consuming - yes in case of single client.
    2. CWKPQ boss room need to be halved exp/timer - no.
    3. CWKPQ should be more profitable in time-wise - this applies on only for who has multiple chars to do cwkpq, no.

    So, imo, your suggestion benefits almost only ppls who doesn't care about exp, but I wish to say, tanky HP following dope exp helps a lot for attackers who is pre-HT stage, so I'm a bit against for suggestion which can reduce exp coming from it.

    'Reducing exp' this is what I really concern, because, for who cares about exp, cwkpq is really great source for it.

    Fun fact : CWKPQ is already more time-wise profitable than 6man HT bsp+sed split with current status.

    Personal (and many sweaties do this too) solution : so I felt boring on cwkpq boss room, started to do extra stuffs like buffing pty members w/ mules, duo attacking solo cleave, or (not me) soloing range part using 2 attackers, w/e. This made me busy enough in boss room instead of pressing 1 key yawning, and I feel fun from it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. Bax
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    Bax Orange Mushroom

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    I deleted by post because it won’t balance things by halving rewards as it will break the market too.
     
  14. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Agree with this, just fix the bottleneck. The other parts of the pq are fine.
     
  15. JKNS
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    JKNS Selkie Jr.

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    Echoing this, have never found boss stage boring. Cleave has felt engaging even on single client, especially on DrK.
     
  16. OP
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    Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Thank you all for the feedback so far! After discussing with a friend last night I realized my post wasnt worded very well and uh...perhaps missing some key things to paint the full picture. My apologies. Ive edited the post to better reflect the goals of the suggestion and its presumed effects.
     
  17. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    I have no idea for shads strat so I wouldn't mention about it, but as warrior, to deal with summons efficiently, I have to focus on warrior boss animation (hornblowing) and rush pin in correct timing, use proper skills to clear which isnt brandish (I love slash blast), and in case of drk, crashing enrage also because it can actually kill me.
    This combination and harmony changes depends on who is partner. Pally? They'll hh but would feel hard for deal with fire mages and stun them sunk behind. So....? Use roar/shout to finish them helping partner. Buccs/shads? They're freaking good in dealing summons but still need help on initial rush, but i can way more focus on bosses after that thanks for their mobbing ability.
    Warriors arent spamming brandish or crusher for whole run braindead. If they do so, they can't handle with mobs at all, and bottom floor will be overflooded in no times.

    Also, many magepinners are doing alttab or even use another laptop dp mage to finish mage in time. This requires heavy APM which even makes me boycott to run cwkpq as NL.

    Now, what we were doing was mentioned as nothing.

    Added : lemme be a bit more cruel. in cwkpq, if shad was able to macro BoT+Bstep AFK for whole run feeling boredom, instead of moving around to deal with leaking flow of summons sweating a lot, that means, your partner warrior was HARD focusing for whole run to control summons perfectly, devoted for his role. It's not boring game like that, for them if they're focusing on bosses animation/SFX + (optional)buffs like SI/HS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2023
  18. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    lowering hp and time thus nerfing rewards aswell will still be a nerf to cleave classes.
    I agree with huiae that cleave bosses are not afk experience because of the summons. DRK also have to pay attention for warrior boss dmg buff so he can dispell it to use zerk more effectively. personally once archer boss dies im alternating brandish panic to kill the boss faster.
    Even after rewritten the post, the problems are still the same:
    1. archer room
    2. pirate boss
     
  19. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    I don't run CWKPQ often but didn't the pirate boss recently have it's I-frames removed?
     
  20. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    It did get a hitbox for the attack where he hits the floor, But it still has iframes for the attack where he jumps high in the air.
    Also if multiple ranged attackers hit it, it will still just spam shark attacks. Once a melee attacker hits it it can trigger the iframes attacks he got
     
    • Informative Informative x 2

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