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Accepted Double Stab needs to be Buffed?

Discussion in 'Accepted' started by xDarkomantis, Aug 19, 2022.

Double Stab needs to be Buffed?

  1. No

  2. Yes

  3. Yes, but maybe there needs to be a slight adjustment to Bandit also to account for this

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    12:33 PM
    Forgive me for being new to the server, but this is something that always baffles me and this is the same thing I talked about on the other big server... It's already known in the Maplestory Pserver community that Lucky Seven outdamages Double Stab to such a degree that Double Stab is ignored altogether for the "Sindit" build as it's stronger and safer/cost efficient. Even the Bandit guide "Blu's Full Guide For Shadowers" suggests the Sindit path. So why is Double Stab left in such a weak state for newer players?

    I know some people might go "Well Chief Bandit has such a good 3rd job via Meso Explosion" or "Shadowers are broken with Meso Guard and their good damage" but the former requires funding and ignores players who might not want to use Meso Explosion (and save their hand). And for the latter, why does end-game have to restrict a class's 1st/early 2nd job so much? You shouldn't be punished for trying to play a Dagger pre-dit...

    As someone had said to me before about Double stab:
    1. [Bad] damage
    2. More melee than warriors slash blast/strike due to dagger range
    3. Becomes obsolete rather quick on 2nd job

    I don't think it'd be wrong to do any of the following:
    • Increase Damage Dealt to be on-par/slightly above Lucky Seven
    • Make it have minimum damage dealt (Mastery) or change formula
    • Allow it to hit two enemies
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    1:33 PM
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    Nah, 3rd job of shadowers are very overrated, they're not that good and meso explosion sucks, grinding with BoT and using the mesos for leech is ways better
    I don't know who is talking this to you, but this guy is definitely crazy, shadower is everything but not broken, in last patch they was quoted of one of the worst class in the game (they got good buffs recently don't worry).
    I can see some people complaining about this, but i really don't see any reason to not do it, it is a bad game design anyways, we don't need to keep the stupid Neckson design, even with double stab dealing more dpm than L7 (what is fair) on early levels, it still worse because of the range and LPQ, increasing it to 160% dmg seems fair, warriors can do 130% for 6 mobs with more range on their attacks and max range, thiefs with t.rex hands deal 2 lines of 130% in 1 mob :confused:
     
  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    There are people who play permabeginners. There are also people who play 1st job stabbing thiefs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  4. ShadowRealm
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    ShadowRealm Chronos

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    9:33 AM
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    Lucky seven is far more superior because it's damage is stable without mastery thanks to its own formula that it's minimum damsge is 50% of its max damage. This makes it so that a sindit can 3 hit kpq ligators and a double stab dit going to take 5~20 hits to kill a kpq ligator. This built in "mastery" difference already outclasses double stab altogether during 1st job

    And to make double stab more stable you gonna need dagger mastery but it's a second job class. By the time you get Second job, it gets hard replaced by Savage blow anyways.

    Sindits are always better as the most popular dit build is going dexless early game. Dexless dits by far is awful, not having the ability to get a dagger till level 35 is awful. At least for sindits you can change the stars to something significantly stronger at least. As said, lucky seven scales alot more with luk in which dexless sindit get so much more with it.

    Some possible solution is to increase double stab to either 160% damage from 130% and/or make it hit 2-3 enemies instead of 1. Although making double hit a mobbing skill could make it op, at least it makes it a unique skill that can mob enemies vs lucky seven high stable damage.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    That's a very bad comparation, an odd job against a true job.
    Why you keep asking for bowmaster buffs? there people who play str clerics :rolleyes:

    i'm not against anymore about BM buffs after auf release anyway, but don't be biased
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Vanilla assassinate is similar to double stab in a lot of ways, it gives you an early look into the bandit life.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
  7. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    Shadowers are broken with Meso Guard and their good damage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Right, except a buff to stabbing thieves has probably less than 0.1% of an impact on this server. You could triple the damage on double stab and it wouldn't have any impact in how people play their shads.

    This is the equivalent of asking for power strike buffs because grinding with slash blast is faster.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    Just because something doesn't affect the end-game meta doesn't mean it should be ignored altogether.

    There is a huge portion of the population of this server, the majority even, that doesn't even get to true end game levels.

    Skills that are completely outclassed by other skills within the same job advancement, regardless of character level progression, should be improved, if for nothing more than a QoL improvement for low leveled players.

    This "meta or die" mentality comes across as disingenuous.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Right. Then I will oppose this idea strictly because I think it's a waste of dev time.
    Mind you, thread title and question asks if Double Stab NEEDS to be buffed.
    It is of my opinion that it does not. Anything that is this inconsequential to the server shouldn't be considered a necessity.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    That's the thing, it's inconsequential to your standing in the server, but this isn't the case for everyone. Especially not for the people who are new to the server, the kind of people that we need to attract to the server to stimulate server growth.

    It can be extremely discouraging to new players to learn that they pumped 15+ sp into a skill that is completely outclassed in all ways by the alternative skill in the same 1st job skill line. It discourages people from becoming bandits, because classes in this game are tied to weapon types. Why would anyone pick up a dagger when claws are superior in every way?

    It is a lot more intuitive for players who are new to the server without any level of funding that would like to use daggers optimally to see a dagger skill, inject sp into it, and proceed their merry way onto becoming a dit.

    "Necessity" isn't a term that should be reserved for people who are level 180+.

    And if you want to debate the semantics, is it even necessary to find absolute balance at the end game meta? Is it a necessity to play the game? Nothing is truly a necessity when it boils down to it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 13
  12. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Sorry, i didn't understood whats your point here, you could double hurricane damage and it'll not impact the way you play your bowmaster, you could triple lucky seven damage and it'll not impact the way you play your assassin, its just underwhelming how awful it is, its not like 2 different skills for different situations like power strike and slash blast (one of then have 2x more single target damage while another one is for 2+ mobs), is just bad game design because assassins have custom damage formulas invalidating the bandit route till lv 40.
    And you're right, buffing stab thieves will not do an impact on the server (one more reason to do that) but can change the experience of new players, the game is not all about 4th job and washing for the big majority of the players.
    The thread is about "Double Stab need a buff"? And yes, it deserves.

    And how surprising, again players lv 200 against every change who isn't on their departament, every change need to be focused on my classes and my experience ;)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Trust me, Lucky 7 being a better skill than Double Stab is not what discourages players from making bandits.

    Besides, almost every class has skills that are worse than other options in the same job (or worse, lower jobs). Maxing Double Stab over Lucky 7 isn't going to ruin a character by any means.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    If you get discouraged by first jobs double stab I really wonder if you'll even make it past second job.
     
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    What lengths does staff have to go to coddle new players?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    So what is it that discourages people who are new to the server and presumably do not have any knowledge on later job specializations from continuing their path, if not the actual in-game effectiveness of their skills?
     
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Maybe it's a personal problem? OP already mentioned the benefits of not having to use double stab - it becomes obsolete fairly quickly. If a player is quitting because their levels 10-40 are difficult, this game is probably not for them.
     
  18. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    Devs are very unlikely to touch anything below 4th job unless it has some impact on endgame or can be abused in grinding. Almost every class has crap skills that really could use a rebalance, but those are not the priority right now, and sadly they might never be the priority.

    I agree that double stab or lucky seven should be changed because these are skills the majority of thieves will experience the game through. Very few players actually make it to 4th job and beyond, so changes in this vein could allow the server to grow bigger by increasing the survival rate of new players. However, the current approach is to focus almost solely on the late and endgame in hopes of retaining the hardcore players.

    To be fair, there is still a lot that can be done with the late game so it’s not a wasted investment. It’s just the unfortunate reality for now that early and midgame will rarely be looked at.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    I agree with this whole-heartedly.

    4th job and endgame balance does need to be addressed, but so does the early game. The only way the server actually grows is to attract new players and encourage those players to invest into their characters enough to make it to end game.

    Retaining hard core players will not grow the server, only stop the bleeding of people quitting.

    If server health and maintenance is a priority, balance needs to be addressed at all levels of the game, and not just the end game.

    I'll go a bit farther to say that people who believe that the end game meta is the only thing that matters (which less than 10% of the server population actually make it to) are not seeing the entire picture.

    new players = good
    maintaining players = good

    quitting new players = bad
    quitting end game players = bad

    I understand that balancing end game does and should take precedence over balancing 1st job skills, but why should this dictate that early game balance be ignored entirely?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    I agree with Soblet and Pippy here, it's not the fact of double stab being bad the thing who makes players avoiding doing bandits or something like that, but IN MY OPPINION it's simmilar to three snails change its more a server QoL for new players, its not about we NEED to do it, its more about why not?
    I'm not experienced in programming enough to say if it is easy to buff the % dmg of the skill or no, but for a server who did insanely good reworks in some classes it seems a easy thing
     
    • Like Like x 6

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