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Luk mage avoidability buff

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nicholas, May 4, 2020.

  1. Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    Hi Everybody,

    I posted a month ago with several suggestions on how to buff certain classes. I wanted to make a more focused suggestion thread so that there could be a more cohesive discussion about it in the comments.

    It is widely accepted that there is no (feasible) end-game benefit to making a luk mage due to the disproportionate amount of luk required to equip elemental staves compared to the magic attack they provide (it's approximately 4 luk: 1 magic attack, as opposed to the 1:1 you would get for adding int, with no luk scrolls that cannot be supplemented with equal or better int/magic attack scrolls). Many players have suggested increasing the attack on these weapons, but I simply think this is a waste of potential.

    Luk mages could and should have their own style. I propose that instead of boosting their magic attack in some way, we increase the avoidability gained from luk for all mages. Let's discuss why this is a good trade-off. Luk mages will have significantly less damage than lukless mages, which means they will have to get much better equips in order to match a lukless mage's damage and will have to wait longer to sell things like 1-hit skele leech. Instead of having high damage in an individual hit, avoidability offers most classes the benefit of higher damage per minute in bossing settings, especially in settings like Horn Tail. In particular, unless a character has 250 avoidability it will be hit by almost all of horn-tails attacks, which has a pronounced effect on damage done by classes like buccaneer and corsair. Buccaneers in particular actually already have a version of this buff, giving them huge amounts of availability for having dex--their secondary stat. Buccanneers that manage to gain more than 250 avoid from having high dex get a huge return in HT just from being able to dodge attacks. The same could be done for luk mages.

    My bishop is nearly level 170 and is somewhat funded (z-helm, HTP+egg, msc good luk gear), it has about 170 luk, but only 167 avoidability. A player gains .5 avoidability per luk, but if we increased this to 1 avoidability per luk, my bishop would nearly have approximately 250 avoidability, meaning it would be able to dodge horn tail's attack. As it stands now, the only way I could gain this much avoidability is by scrolling very impressive avoid gear or by adding too much luk to be worth it.

    There are two easy criticisms of this buff.

    First, lukless mages would also gain avoidability, so this is making mages more OP. This isn't exactly true, because the luk bonus only becomes usefull when you have ALOT of it. Most lukless mages have too little luk from their gear (zak helm/HTP) for this to actually matter, so they gain virtually nothing from it. This means that mages aren't being buffed so much as their bottom-line is being raised while their maximum potential is being kept fairly constant.

    Second, players might do what has been done with dex bucc and luk paladin mules. However, this is not exactly feasible, as a mage's mana is tantamount to it's health, and this is directly tied to int held over time. By having a "pure luk" bishop mule, you would have quite little mana (which means you would be too fragile to be useful), and you would have no prospect of doing damage (unlike a luk paladin), or otherwise it would require millions of nx in AP resets to circumvent this. So I don't think we should be too concerned with abuse on this front.

    Edit (some mroe thoughts)
    I wanted to additionally post some further thoughts on this topic. Also, I'm really pushing the balance team to make a decision on this topic, because there are likely hundreds of new luk mages who would really like to know whether or not they will be offered anything in the future or if they should give up and reset their luk now.

    The only reason the standard luk mage became obsolete is because Neckson wanted to push micro-transactions (gachapon) and introduced the over-powered elemental wands. These weapons are the only reason why the lukless build is the definitive way to build a mage. I do not think that Maple Legends should accept Neckson's decision to monetize game imbalances-- even if the monetization is removed from the equation.

    In traditional RPGs, mages generally have two major builds, either they go for raw damage but are more susceptible to dying or they go for a more safe build and have some agility. MapleLegends only supports the former build, while the latter build is what is being proposed in this thread. So this suggestion is consistent with RPG metas in general.

    A more concrete reason for why we should offer something for luk mages is that it is clear that many (if not most) players who make mages as one of their early characters do not know that luk mages have such a significant disadvantage. And why should they? It is built into the game that mages should put in luk. Most players seeking a nostalgic experience aren't seeking to (re)experience Neckson's dubious decisions around monetization. If we view this change from a more casual perspective, this buff is actually very subtle. Most players don't focus on this level of the nitty-gritty of game balancing, and probably wouldn't even notice this change. Players who make a luk mage will receive the benefit of this fix without having to pursue an obscure build and without even thinking about it. Moreover, players can still decide later if they want to make a lukless mage.

    Perhaps the most important point to this conversation is that I think this fix preserves a true nostalgic experience of Maple Story, as the fix matches player expectation that luk mage is a viable build, protects players from being unwittingly penalized, and will not change the mage meta in the greater context of the game. Old School players remember luk mages, and we loved their iconic look and feel. Just because Neckson created game imbalances to drive sales doesn't mean MapleLegends shouldn't fix them. These small imbalances made my Neckson drove MapleStory away from the nostalgic experience we came here for, and I think luk mages were definitely the first on the chopping block-- even as early as v62.

    I've been posting additional arguments as replies to comments if you're interested in reading more details on why this is a viable solution.

    Due to the ban against taking mules into several bosses, HT and Zak most notably, it is no longer an issue that a "luk HS mule" could be made by bossers. While it is currently not decided on whether or not using multiple PCs to take mules into bosses is an offense, I imagine the staff will eventually make the right decision to make this an offense, which would completely eliminate this concern.
     
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  2. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I sincerely doubt staff would be willing to make such a drastic change to maplelegends. If you look at the past changes a lot of them are fairly conservative.

    I think the best bet here is to save up the AP resets to make your bishop LUKLESS.
     
  3. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I would not consider many of the skill buff changes to be "conservative." Just look at the massive changes to paladin and shadowers alone. This is an extremely modest request considering it doesn't really make the mage classes more powerful as a whole, unlike many of the changes that have been implemented.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. Vaessen
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    Vaessen Orange Mushroom

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    I would love to see diversity with magicians. A lot of equipment isn't being used due to LUK requirements.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Sumilidon 25
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    Sumilidon 25 King Slime

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    I don't think this would be a welcomed buff. Why play any other ranged class other than NL if LUK gets such a buff? Literally they can just hp wash so no need for hb, they can make an SE/si mule and if this goes through it'll truly become NL legends. I don't support it.
     
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  6. Vaessen
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    Vaessen Orange Mushroom

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    I think he meant buff LUK just for mages (if that is even possible)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    He is proposing making changes to the formula for mages’ avoidability..... and yes it is possible by tweaking numbers.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  8. merky
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    merky Mr. Anchor

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    +1 to greater diversity amongst mages, and to the viability of good ol' LUK mages.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. benQ
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    benQ Pac Pinky

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    this is bcoz the low population of paladin & shad0wers..
    no1 would want to play if no changes made..:confused:
     
  10. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    First, this buff is just for magicians, not for all classes. This can be implemented as a class-specific change, as it is already implemented with buccaneers and their avoidability from dex multiplier. Also, I don't understand the content of your argument, as most NLs I know have good HP from washing, and an SE mule (si doesn't affect NL and BM). So you actually stated something that's basically already true. The question is now why make a luk mage if a lukless mage is a legend in comparison (and this IS the status quo)? Your argument applies against itself.
     
  11. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This is possible, as it is implemented for just buccaneers with respect to their avoidability obtained from dex (it's not 1:1, but it starts higher than 1 then gradually decreases (see post below this one for original rate)). This is exploited by many HT runners who make SI-mules that only have dex, as they are basically invincible and can be made to have huge HP. I am suggesting a more modest buff, and even then exploitation would be difficult to infeasible.
     
  12. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Base Avoid:
    Warriors[/Magicians/Bowmen/Thieves/Beginners] = DEX * 0.25 + LUK * 0.5
    Pirates = DEX * 0.25 + LUK * 0.5
    Brawlers = DEX * 1.5 + LUK * 0.5
    Gunslingers = DEX * 0.125 + LUK * 0.5

    Current unchanged rates according to ayumilove.
    https://ayumilovemaple.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/maplestory-formula-compilation/

    Buccs have dumb avoid for no other reason than because Neckson makes weird game design decisions.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  13. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    Until the population inflation, luk mage was an extinct build, far less common than paladins annd shadowers. Many players who have made luk mages fit into one category: they did not realize how much damage they lose out on as a luk mage, and in light of this, eventually removed their luk. This has been the story of luk mages since I joined in 2016, and there is no reason to expect it to change now with the influx of luk mages who will struggle to do damage. If we consider that also that a luk mage is the intended style of play for the class (i.e imagine lukless mage without elemental wands), then what you've commented actually supports my argument here: nobody plays normal luk mages so there should be a fix so people can play them.

    I wanted to reiterate that under appropriate balancing, this fix will do nothing for most mages, and for most people who want to make mages. Lukless mages will still be better at selling-leech, which effectively all mages are made and used for, and luk mages would have the potential for higher damage in a bossing setting due to less need to reposition, where bossing as a mage is definitely less common. This the boost would be modest even then, as luk mages would be starting with significantly lower damage per hit anyways. This is effectively the difference between 1 handed and 2 handed warrior weapons, except warriors get to have both, and mages would only get to choose one.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This is not true. This high dex multiplier is really important to buccaneers in bossing because repositioning melee characters causes you to lose a lot of damage per minute. When not using super transform, buccaneers have the shortest range in the game, meaning they have to reposition basically each time they get hit, unless they have energy charge, which is not very often. So having high enough availability lets them get hit less, therefore reposition less, and therefore do more damage. The only problem with this is that buccanneer skills are highly-coveted in boss runs, and so mules have been made with pure dex and so the multiplier is exploited. Mage (Bishop) skills are also highly-coveted, but this is addressed in the original post--- it is not the same, as a mage needs int in order to survive (because int= mana=HP), so having pure luk simply doesn't work.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I know all this, mostly because I'm the degenerate who theorycrafted dex buccs for HT. HH mules as well, but only Skarm believed in my madness. OnionHumming

    Still bad game design on Neckson's part, especially with Sairs shafted so hard for avoid. Lately I've been trying to come up with mixed bucc AP builds do see what levels of avoid would do what. Currently I'm liking the idea of ~80 base dex + str equips/MoN for most content and switching to dex gear/HTP for HT.
     
  16. Vaessen
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    Are you saying that LUK gives M.A ?
     
  17. OP
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    Nicholas
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    In the context of being able to equip elemental staff 5-8, which gives 40 magic attack more than an elemental wand, it does. You need 165 luk to equip them, and gain you 40 more magic attack, hence an approximate 4:1 luk to magic attack gain (which is very bad). At best, if we omit the luk you have from standard equips such as HTP or zak/targ helmet and rings, it's still going to be somewhere around 3:1 (still very bad).
     
  18. Dunski
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    Dunski Red Snail

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    i think this is a good idea
     
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  19. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    A hands down YES from me on this!
     
  20. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    Just to Bump the thread ima comment the edit I made :p
    I wanted to additionally post some further thoughts on this topic. Also, I'm really pushing the balance team to make a decision on this topic, because there are likely hundreds of new luk mages who would really like to know whether or not they will be offered anything in the future or if they should give up and reset their luk now.

    The only reason the standard luk mage became obsolete is because Neckson wanted to push micro-transactions (gachapon) and introduced the over-powered elemental wands. These weapons are the only reason why the lukless build is the definitive way to build a mage. I do not think that Maple Legends should accept Neckson's decision to monetize game imbalances-- even if the monetization is removed from the equation.

    In traditional RPGs, mages generally have two major builds, either they go for raw damage but are more susceptible to dying or they go for a more safe build and have some agility. MapleLegends only supports the former build, while the latter build is what is being proposed in this thread. So this suggestion is consistent with RPG metas in general.

    A more concrete reason for why we should offer something for luk mages is that it is clear that many (if not most) players who make mages as one of their early characters do not know that luk mages have such a significant disadvantage. And why should they? It is built into the game that mages should put in luk. Most players seeking a nostalgic experience aren't seeking to (re)experience Neckson's dubious decisions around monetization. If we view this change from a more casual perspective, this buff is actually very subtle. Most players don't focus on this level of the nitty-gritty of game balancing, and probably wouldn't even notice this change. Players who make a luk mage will receive the benefit of this fix without having to pursue an obscure build and without even thinking about it. Moreover, players can still decide later if they want to make a lukless mage.

    Perhaps the most important point to this conversation is that I think this fix preserves a true nostalgic experience of Maple Story, as the fix matches player expectation that luk mage is a viable build, protects players from being unwittingly penalized, and will not change the mage meta in the greater context of the game. Old School players remember luk mages, and we loved their iconic look and feel. Just because Neckson created game imbalances to drive sales doesn't mean MapleLegends shouldn't fix them. These small imbalances made my Neckson drove MapleStory away from the nostalgic experience we came here for, and I think luk mages were definitely the first on the chopping block-- even as early as v62.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3

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