1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Make card droprates more consistent

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by ahotbanana, Aug 22, 2021.

  1. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    One might see it as poor design. Another might see it as a unique trait in this game that challenges players to learn and improve upon. If overnight they made Deep Buffoons drop cards at a much higher rate, the gap between knowledgeable players and unknowledgeable players would grow more shallow. If you see this as a good thing, that's ultimately where our opinions might differ. Personally, I find normalizing everything to be quite boring.

    Except in this case, there are three posters who remember no real difference in drop rates for Officer Skeletons and Skeleton Soldiers.

    The probability of scrolling a 20 atk+ cape is VERY improbable, but yet people know about that cape because of its improbability. I've explained many times that there tends to be a bias in reporting negative experiences. Just because OP encountered an improbable experience doesn't make his experience 'more valid' than others as long as it is within a realm of possibility. Why would this one-off experience warrant an investigation? Honestly, it sounds like someone is just salty because they had bad luck and they're asking for a manager to make sense of RNG. <Sir, this is a Wendy's>.

    What would staff looking into drop rates do? Let's say Staff gives in and says "yep, they're different" - what exactly would that accomplish? The problem at hand is that OP seems to be complaining about variance between mobs and is asking to eliminate extreme outliers. Except in this case, his reasoning is stemmed on an experience that isn't shared commonly by others. Do you not see how weak that argument is?
     
  2. OP
    OP
    ahotbanana
    Offline

    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

    361
    126
    278
    Sep 27, 2015
    Male
    UK
    9:39 AM
    This is true, but that doesn't mean that negative reports should be ignored, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

    It's not a one off experience. Lots of players have experienced variability in how long different cards take. Maybe not with this specific card, but it was intended as an example, not an exhaustive study. Strawman.

    Irrelevant. It's a question of how different they are and whether the initial drop rates are a victim of the fact that probability is inherently unintuitive. Strawman once again.

    It's weak because it's a strawman. Please just stop.
     
  3. Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    104
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    5:39 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    In other words, get gud it's a feature

    I completely agree that negative experiences carry on more vividly. While OP had an extremely negative experience, someone else may have had an extremely positive experience, or in your case, multiple extremely average experiences. However, I don't believe his original suggestion is invalid and should be dismissed into "unlucky complaining". The variance in hunt times is objectively present, sometimes it takes 5 minutes, and sometimes it takes over an hour. Maybe you disagree that it's a problem, but it's there and observable.

    It's already agreed upon that the drop rates are different; that's not the conclusion we're searching for. What's being discussed is if their differences are reasonable or not. Should Pinboom take 5 minutes? Should Nest Golems take 2 hours? These are arbitrary numbers of course since we don't have drop rates available but the real rates probably reflect this. You are allowed to disagree if you think they should, because that's your opinion, but your anecdotes are not sufficient evidence that Staff shouldn't bother.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    I think I finally understand the convoluted point of this thread and there still seems to be contradicting points.
    1. OP thinks that community is incapable of knowing which mobs are good or bad because we lack drop rate data.

    2. Because of the above, OP wants staff to look into numbers to find out which mobs are universally bad for card hunting and disclose that information, or at least tweak it to normalize them closer to others. Ultimately, OP wants an explanation as to what benefit there might be to any card drop variance at all.

    However, it seems contradictory that OP admits that players who go on subsequent/repeat card hunts are completing their Monsterbook rings faster as if that is not an added benefit of experience.

    It's all a matter of perspective. You think a new player is being punished by not knowing, while I believe a seasoned player is being rewarded for knowing how to navigate around the inefficiencies. If players who are completing multiple Tier10 rings are completing them faster and faster, what would be the reasoning?

    Edit: My explanation of why your initial justification of your post and single point of data (Officer Skeletons) isn't a strawman lmao. It dismantles any concrete data you've propositioned so far.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    ahotbanana
    Offline

    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

    361
    126
    278
    Sep 27, 2015
    Male
    UK
    9:39 AM
    It dismantles a misrepresentation of what I said, not what I said. That's a strawman. I'm not reading anything else you've written because I assume it'll just be you mis-representing what I've said again. Look back on all of my posts in response to you on this thread. How many times have I had to say something along the lines of "no, that's not what I said" in reply to you? Literally 100% of my posts? Yeah...
     
  6. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
     
  7. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Actually, this thread might lead to a good idea after all.
    Why don't you start a community forum post that challenges card hunters to time their card hunting ventures. We can clock submissions using TimeTime command at start (0/5 cards) and end (5/5 cards), and calculate the average for each. We can have overall average and average excluding outliers of 3 standard deviations.
    Instead of asking for staff for data, why not call upon the community for it. This was the same approach to CWKPQ drop rate thread.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
  8. Kyshies
    Online

    Kyshies Slimy

    234
    177
    235
    Mar 13, 2020
    10:39 AM
    Elliy
    F/P Arch Mage
    Some card sets have TERRIBLE drop rates despite having disproportionately bad spawn. Stuff like MT-09, Rombot, Jr Boogie, Ashigaru....

    Those need buffs imo.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  9. Kimmy
    Offline

    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

    10,963
    10,998
    551
    Sep 9, 2014
    The Netherlands
    10:39 AM
    Moderator Post
    All the monster cards were all done manually by me back when MB got exclusively coded in ML, because there are no official drop values for them available. So for those saying that some drops are flawed are definitely right, since it was all done very tediously by me back then. I currently have no thoughts on revisiting the drop rates at this time, since people have been able to do them well enough, and making the current hard cards easier will just make the overall experience easier.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Informative Informative x 6
  10. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Here's some data I compiled in the last day with screenshots and time stamps. Botched some of the screenshots b/c this area was revamped and optimal maps are different:

    Meercat: 18 minutes 20 seconds
    upload_2021-8-25_12-9-18.png


    Female Desert Rabbit: 4 minutes 39 seconds
    upload_2021-8-25_12-8-8.png

    Jr. Cactus: 6 minutes 47 seconds
    upload_2021-8-25_12-6-9.png
    Cactus: 7 minutes 9 seconds
    (I show Royal Cactus MB b/c I thought Cactus Desert 2 would be better for Royal Cactus, but I ended up completing 5/5 Cactus cards and 0/5 Royal Cactus cards within this time. Ends up Royal Cactus Desert still better for Royal Cactus.)

    upload_2021-8-25_12-1-51.png

    Royal Cactus: 7 minutes 18 seconds
    (I botched the monster book screenshot to show 0/0...)

    upload_2021-8-25_12-3-13.png


    As you can see, there are plenty of card sets that are fairly easy. Asking to make all of these card sets harder for the sake of a few skippable hard card sets sounds like a really bad idea.

    If the proposed rebalancing of each set to skew towards the average of ~30 minutes, these 6 sets would have taken me closer to 3 hours opposed to the ~45 minutes in reality.

    Like I said, a wide majority of card sets are fairly easy. Trying to rebalance based on outlier experience sounds like a terrible idea.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  11. Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    104
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    5:39 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    If you're going to use the easiest cards that most people hunt at the beginning as an example, you should be considering the cards that are more difficult that people hunt for their last 270-300 sets as well.

    upload_2021-8-25_17-14-35.png

    This is how I imagined it at least.

    If you're still insistent on proving yourself as correct, feel free to post more data... Kimmy has already answered the suggestion though FYI.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  12. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    I plan on logging the rest of my progression on my NL. Currently on 218 sets.
    The other thing is I don't leave the hardest sets for last. I progress by region, so it does fluctuate between 'hard' and easy sets.
    Regions left: some of Ariant, Magatia, Mu Lung, Herb town, some of CBD, Boat Quay, Trend Zone Metropolis, Kampung, Mushroom Shrine, Showa, and Leafre.

    However, just looking through my list of mobs completed, I can confidently say that a good 75% of them fall under the sub-30 min average clear, with maybe 30% of that being less than 15 minutes (look at most of Victoria Island, Orbis, Ariant, etc.). There aren't that many hard mobs that you should be including in your list of 300, and a lot of them you can get for free from leech spots. And even then, the hardest of mobs I've encountered still tend to top out at around 1 hour. I'm not saying it's impossible to go 2-3 hours longer in extreme cases of bad luck, but I'd definitely attribute it to bad luck and not something that needs to be changed because of 'imbalance'.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    upload_2021-8-25_23-26-13.png

    I just wanted to point out the irony of the graph you used as your counter-example because it's a pretty fair representation of reality if assuming the graph includes all 300 sets. I know it's not meant to be taken literally, but the graph shows that the proposed ring progression would be even more difficult and more time consuming than the current ring progression.

    Also, here's 4 more sub-15 minute clears and picture proof:

    Male Desert Rabbit: 8 minutes 14 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-29-52.png

    Bellamoa: 5 minutes 38 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-30-28.png

    Ear Plug Plead: 3 minutes 52 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-31-32.png

    Scarf Plead: 10 minutes 43 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-32-27.png

    Gonna clear Sand Rat and then I'm moving onto Magatia mobs which are known to be more time consuming, but as long as I can keep my time under 45 minutes per set, my average should still stay under 30 min/set.

    Also, I just realized I only have 4/5 sets on brown teddy. Oops.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Nightz
    Offline

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,782
    1,033
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    10:39 AM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    Just out if curiosity, do you notice any big difference in cardhunting with different classes? Or do you mainly use a simple 1st job or similar single attack? What would you say is optimal?
     
  15. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,246
    880
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    2:39 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    I'm guessing my NL is faster than most of my other characters when it comes to clearing due to the mobility. My first two t10 rings were cleared before washing out (BM, Shad) so it took a bit longer. 3rd set was on my DK and it was extremely fast. Currently on tier 9 with an int corsair. I stopped hunting on him at Tier 8 due to not being able to efficiently clear some of the harder regions like El Nath and Deep Ludi with the gimped damage, but now that my NL is washed out, I can clear with him and loot on both. I plan on getting them to tier10 together.

    To answer your question - no, outside of the damage restrictions. I think card drop rate is fairly standard across classes and is ultimately limited by your ability to clear efficiently. I haven't cleared sets on mages and don't really have any incentive to at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a drop rate nerf on their ults.

    No shenanigans with skill choice - I just use whatever attack that will clear the fastest. On certain maps, I use another character to simultaneously clear out of reach spawns (e.g. Orbis kitty maps).

    All the timed sets I've been posting have been done strictly on one client.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. OP
    OP
    ahotbanana
    Offline

    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

    361
    126
    278
    Sep 27, 2015
    Male
    UK
    9:39 AM
    The dude is literally still trying to prove that there's no flaw in the drop rates when Kimmy, who literally set the drop rates and knows exactly what they are and what was intended with them, has openly said that they're flawed. The guy doesn't read what people have written when coming up with his "genius rebuttals". I wouldn't bother.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Nightz
    Offline

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,782
    1,033
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    10:39 AM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    No need to go there man :)
    He's simply sharing his current data on card hunting which imo is more than welcome, nothing to proof. Everyone knows some cards take longer than others.

    "you wouldn't bother" yet keep coming back to the thread where both of you argue against a wall and it's clearly pointless.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  18. OP
    OP
    ahotbanana
    Offline

    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

    361
    126
    278
    Sep 27, 2015
    Male
    UK
    9:39 AM
    Yeah, you're right. I'll unfollow the thread so I'm no longer tempted
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  19. Koneko
    Offline

    Koneko Orange Mushroom

    33
    15
    43
    Jan 21, 2021
    Female
    2:39 AM
    KonekoDxD
    Bandit, Chief Bandit
    70
    I think everything has been hit upon nicely. Lots of input from amazing players in the community and a reply from one of the staff members. Now we just wait.
     
  20. Jafel
    Offline

    Jafel Capt. Latanica

    344
    168
    278
    May 3, 2015
    Male
    10:39 AM
    KingSlime
    Outlaw
    70
    Twice
    Kimmy straight up said she's not going to change it as even though it is flawed, it does its job of providing a variety of challenging and less challenging cards to farm. Meaning there's a new sense of exploration and unknown aspects to the game. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page