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Make card droprates more consistent

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by ahotbanana, Aug 22, 2021.

  1. Porkupine
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    xB0wM4sT3rx
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    In other words, get gud it's a feature

    I completely agree that negative experiences carry on more vividly. While OP had an extremely negative experience, someone else may have had an extremely positive experience, or in your case, multiple extremely average experiences. However, I don't believe his original suggestion is invalid and should be dismissed into "unlucky complaining". The variance in hunt times is objectively present, sometimes it takes 5 minutes, and sometimes it takes over an hour. Maybe you disagree that it's a problem, but it's there and observable.

    It's already agreed upon that the drop rates are different; that's not the conclusion we're searching for. What's being discussed is if their differences are reasonable or not. Should Pinboom take 5 minutes? Should Nest Golems take 2 hours? These are arbitrary numbers of course since we don't have drop rates available but the real rates probably reflect this. You are allowed to disagree if you think they should, because that's your opinion, but your anecdotes are not sufficient evidence that Staff shouldn't bother.
     
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I think I finally understand the convoluted point of this thread and there still seems to be contradicting points.
    1. OP thinks that community is incapable of knowing which mobs are good or bad because we lack drop rate data.

    2. Because of the above, OP wants staff to look into numbers to find out which mobs are universally bad for card hunting and disclose that information, or at least tweak it to normalize them closer to others. Ultimately, OP wants an explanation as to what benefit there might be to any card drop variance at all.

    However, it seems contradictory that OP admits that players who go on subsequent/repeat card hunts are completing their Monsterbook rings faster as if that is not an added benefit of experience.

    It's all a matter of perspective. You think a new player is being punished by not knowing, while I believe a seasoned player is being rewarded for knowing how to navigate around the inefficiencies. If players who are completing multiple Tier10 rings are completing them faster and faster, what would be the reasoning?

    Edit: My explanation of why your initial justification of your post and single point of data (Officer Skeletons) isn't a strawman lmao. It dismantles any concrete data you've propositioned so far.
     
  3. OP
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    ahotbanana
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    It dismantles a misrepresentation of what I said, not what I said. That's a strawman. I'm not reading anything else you've written because I assume it'll just be you mis-representing what I've said again. Look back on all of my posts in response to you on this thread. How many times have I had to say something along the lines of "no, that's not what I said" in reply to you? Literally 100% of my posts? Yeah...
     
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Actually, this thread might lead to a good idea after all.
    Why don't you start a community forum post that challenges card hunters to time their card hunting ventures. We can clock submissions using TimeTime command at start (0/5 cards) and end (5/5 cards), and calculate the average for each. We can have overall average and average excluding outliers of 3 standard deviations.
    Instead of asking for staff for data, why not call upon the community for it. This was the same approach to CWKPQ drop rate thread.
     
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  6. Kyshies
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    Kyshies Slimy

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    Some card sets have TERRIBLE drop rates despite having disproportionately bad spawn. Stuff like MT-09, Rombot, Jr Boogie, Ashigaru....

    Those need buffs imo.
     
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  7. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    All the monster cards were all done manually by me back when MB got exclusively coded in ML, because there are no official drop values for them available. So for those saying that some drops are flawed are definitely right, since it was all done very tediously by me back then. I currently have no thoughts on revisiting the drop rates at this time, since people have been able to do them well enough, and making the current hard cards easier will just make the overall experience easier.
     
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  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Here's some data I compiled in the last day with screenshots and time stamps. Botched some of the screenshots b/c this area was revamped and optimal maps are different:

    Meercat: 18 minutes 20 seconds
    upload_2021-8-25_12-9-18.png


    Female Desert Rabbit: 4 minutes 39 seconds
    upload_2021-8-25_12-8-8.png

    Jr. Cactus: 6 minutes 47 seconds
    upload_2021-8-25_12-6-9.png
    Cactus: 7 minutes 9 seconds
    (I show Royal Cactus MB b/c I thought Cactus Desert 2 would be better for Royal Cactus, but I ended up completing 5/5 Cactus cards and 0/5 Royal Cactus cards within this time. Ends up Royal Cactus Desert still better for Royal Cactus.)

    upload_2021-8-25_12-1-51.png

    Royal Cactus: 7 minutes 18 seconds
    (I botched the monster book screenshot to show 0/0...)

    upload_2021-8-25_12-3-13.png


    As you can see, there are plenty of card sets that are fairly easy. Asking to make all of these card sets harder for the sake of a few skippable hard card sets sounds like a really bad idea.

    If the proposed rebalancing of each set to skew towards the average of ~30 minutes, these 6 sets would have taken me closer to 3 hours opposed to the ~45 minutes in reality.

    Like I said, a wide majority of card sets are fairly easy. Trying to rebalance based on outlier experience sounds like a terrible idea.
     
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  9. Porkupine
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    If you're going to use the easiest cards that most people hunt at the beginning as an example, you should be considering the cards that are more difficult that people hunt for their last 270-300 sets as well.

    upload_2021-8-25_17-14-35.png

    This is how I imagined it at least.

    If you're still insistent on proving yourself as correct, feel free to post more data... Kimmy has already answered the suggestion though FYI.
     
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  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I plan on logging the rest of my progression on my NL. Currently on 218 sets.
    The other thing is I don't leave the hardest sets for last. I progress by region, so it does fluctuate between 'hard' and easy sets.
    Regions left: some of Ariant, Magatia, Mu Lung, Herb town, some of CBD, Boat Quay, Trend Zone Metropolis, Kampung, Mushroom Shrine, Showa, and Leafre.

    However, just looking through my list of mobs completed, I can confidently say that a good 75% of them fall under the sub-30 min average clear, with maybe 30% of that being less than 15 minutes (look at most of Victoria Island, Orbis, Ariant, etc.). There aren't that many hard mobs that you should be including in your list of 300, and a lot of them you can get for free from leech spots. And even then, the hardest of mobs I've encountered still tend to top out at around 1 hour. I'm not saying it's impossible to go 2-3 hours longer in extreme cases of bad luck, but I'd definitely attribute it to bad luck and not something that needs to be changed because of 'imbalance'.
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    upload_2021-8-25_23-26-13.png

    I just wanted to point out the irony of the graph you used as your counter-example because it's a pretty fair representation of reality if assuming the graph includes all 300 sets. I know it's not meant to be taken literally, but the graph shows that the proposed ring progression would be even more difficult and more time consuming than the current ring progression.

    Also, here's 4 more sub-15 minute clears and picture proof:

    Male Desert Rabbit: 8 minutes 14 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-29-52.png

    Bellamoa: 5 minutes 38 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-30-28.png

    Ear Plug Plead: 3 minutes 52 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-31-32.png

    Scarf Plead: 10 minutes 43 seconds

    upload_2021-8-25_23-32-27.png

    Gonna clear Sand Rat and then I'm moving onto Magatia mobs which are known to be more time consuming, but as long as I can keep my time under 45 minutes per set, my average should still stay under 30 min/set.

    Also, I just realized I only have 4/5 sets on brown teddy. Oops.
     
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  12. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Just out if curiosity, do you notice any big difference in cardhunting with different classes? Or do you mainly use a simple 1st job or similar single attack? What would you say is optimal?
     
  13. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm guessing my NL is faster than most of my other characters when it comes to clearing due to the mobility. My first two t10 rings were cleared before washing out (BM, Shad) so it took a bit longer. 3rd set was on my DK and it was extremely fast. Currently on tier 9 with an int corsair. I stopped hunting on him at Tier 8 due to not being able to efficiently clear some of the harder regions like El Nath and Deep Ludi with the gimped damage, but now that my NL is washed out, I can clear with him and loot on both. I plan on getting them to tier10 together.

    To answer your question - no, outside of the damage restrictions. I think card drop rate is fairly standard across classes and is ultimately limited by your ability to clear efficiently. I haven't cleared sets on mages and don't really have any incentive to at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a drop rate nerf on their ults.

    No shenanigans with skill choice - I just use whatever attack that will clear the fastest. On certain maps, I use another character to simultaneously clear out of reach spawns (e.g. Orbis kitty maps).

    All the timed sets I've been posting have been done strictly on one client.
     
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  14. OP
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    The dude is literally still trying to prove that there's no flaw in the drop rates when Kimmy, who literally set the drop rates and knows exactly what they are and what was intended with them, has openly said that they're flawed. The guy doesn't read what people have written when coming up with his "genius rebuttals". I wouldn't bother.
     
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  15. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    No need to go there man :)
    He's simply sharing his current data on card hunting which imo is more than welcome, nothing to proof. Everyone knows some cards take longer than others.

    "you wouldn't bother" yet keep coming back to the thread where both of you argue against a wall and it's clearly pointless.
     
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  16. OP
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Yeah, you're right. I'll unfollow the thread so I'm no longer tempted
     
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  17. Koneko
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    Koneko Orange Mushroom

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    I think everything has been hit upon nicely. Lots of input from amazing players in the community and a reply from one of the staff members. Now we just wait.
     
  18. Jafel
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    Jafel Capt. Latanica

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    Kimmy straight up said she's not going to change it as even though it is flawed, it does its job of providing a variety of challenging and less challenging cards to farm. Meaning there's a new sense of exploration and unknown aspects to the game. :)
     
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  19. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Your selective hearing and backpedaling are quite hilarious.

    If you can manage to read all of Kimmy's words, you'll notice that she mentions nothing of HOW drop rates might be flawed/different, only that they are. So using your own words from above, what Kimmy says is irrelevant, right?

    However, to drive a point home, I did a quick test just now to see if your anecdotal sob story at Officer Skeleton actually has any backbone (kek).

    Officer Skeleton: 6 minutes 50 seconds

    upload_2021-8-26_8-54-35.png

    Maybe you're right. Maybe it is impossible for some players to distinguish between hard and easy cards.
    Or maybe they're just bad?
     
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  20. Porkupine
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    "I know it's not meant to be taken literally" proceeds to be taken literally

    Here I fixed it for you:

    upload_2021-8-26_13-13-31.png
    Feel free to integrate the curves and show me the areas are still uneven to continue proving your point.

    I'm also unfollowing this thread. Wasn't looking for a monster book journal.
     
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