1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

NL QoL: Increase Shadow Star's Duration Back to 3 Minutes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Porkupine, Jul 10, 2023.

  1. Rapskal
    Offline

    Rapskal Chronos

    82
    56
    103
    Nov 1, 2017
    Male
    4:51 PM
    Rapskal
    Night Lord
    Lost
    Really just disagreed because I enjoy my current Shadow Star+Meso Up macro, which is subjective and not a huge deal, but honestly the "benefits" of this suggestion still don't outweigh it.

    As far as I can see the supposed merits of this suggestion are to:
    • Allow Shadow Star, Claw Booster, and Shadow Partner to be casted together every 3 minutes
    • Increase maximum capacity of stars
    • Slightly lengthen the period between each recharge session.
    The problem with the first one is that from my perspective, it's not actually practical in a bossing situation. If you're trying to maximise your damage you should be recasting Booster and Shadow Partner in moments when you can't be attacking (e.g. at the end of a weapon cancel/DR, when a head ducks, when mobs are temporarily in the way), whereas Shadow Star doesn't have a cast time if you attack straight away so the optimal time to recast it is always just when it runs out. When Shadow Star did have a 3 minute duration, for me personally it still never aligned with the other buffs during a boss fight.

    And as I stated earlier, in a grinding situation it takes away from the buff's alignment with Meso Up. I'm not sure how many other NL players care about this, I'd guess not many, but I genuinely do so I wanted to express that anyway. (And there are other minor annoyances with trying to macro it with Shadow Partner, if you put Shadow Star first it's hard to cast shadow star without also casting your other skills because of how fast you have to cancel it, but if you put it last then you can't cast shadow partner on a rope and jump off without cancelling the shadow star cast..)

    I understand that the second point wasn't suggested as a benefit, as it's more just to fit with the other suggested changes, but it does actually make an NL need maybe one or two less sets of stars and makes USE inventory a little easier to manage. I don't see that as being a benefit because in terms of balance, NL is already one of the most favourable ranged classes so this seems like a step in the wrong direction.
    The third benefit is kinda the same deal, makes USE inventory slightly easier to manage, just feels a little unfair considering how easy that already is for an NL compared to some classes that use more potions and stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
  2. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    For bossing, Archer's main buff, SE, lines up at 5 min with two optional buffs, Focus and Soul Arrow. The only other buff that could use a duration tweak could be Phoenix. Booster doesn't affect Hurricane and I don't think people boss with Hamstring or Puppet unless it's CWK Pirate.

    Edit: Apparently Booster does help with Hurricane's start up animation, and Hamstring can be useful for things like JC and Nameless.

    An adjustment to Phoenix duration time could be viable. It would be a QoL to sync it up with SE, Focus, and Soul Arrow.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  3. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    I understand if you disagree, but if you don’t have anything more substantial to say than joke ideas to misrepresent my suggestion and farm imaginary funny reacts for attention, I’d appreciate if you left the thread. I’m only interested in a productive discussion of feedback and thoughts, not memes. Thanks.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. mard
    Offline

    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

    168
    61
    178
    Jul 20, 2021
    Male
    1:51 AM
    Not quite correct. Booster does affect the startup time of hurricane (as does SI) and this is pretty noticeable, especially at bosses where you get hit a lot and have to restart the hurricane again such as HT or PB.

    Edit: there's also some utility in using strafe at bosses like horntail for jump strafing when repositioning and booster is useful for this as well. Or arrow rain to hit the heads when they duck.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Thank you for your input. I did not consider the impacts to grinding macros like Shadow Star + Meso Up. In retrospect, I don't see why Meso Up shouldn't be increased to 3 minutes as well to line up with Booster and Shadow Partner.

    That's a good point. Recasting Booster and Shadow Partner during boss downtime is a good way to maximise damage output. That would de-sync the buffs, even if they were all 3 min durations.

    These impacts are very little. I would not consider them large benefits at all, and it's not what I'm asking for either. I don't see why it's such a problem to people that a Night Lord could receive a positive change. Again, by people's logic, if they feel Night Lord's QoL is too high to warrant a reasonable buff, do they also support the inverse? Should we nerf Night Lord QoL because they have it too good? I can restructure the proposal in this way:

    Shadow Star duration increased from 120 seconds to 180 seconds.
    Shadow Star star cost increased from 200 stars to 300 stars.
    Ilbi Throwing-Star and Balanced Fury maximum capacity per slot decreased from 800 to 700 stars. (900 after Claw Mastery)
    Magic Throwing Knife maximum capacity per slot decreased from 1200 to 1000 stars. (1200 after Claw Mastery)

    Is this a more reasonable proposal? I think this is a fair suggestion as well. I just think the capacity should be a multiple of the amount Shadow Star takes so that there isn't a leftover.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
  6. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    KarnKarn TarnishedTarnished JKNSJKNS EndorphinssEndorphinss RasoRaso test123test123

    I would love to know why each of you disagreed. Frankly, I find the argument, "Night Lord's game play is already too easy for a QoL buff" very weak. I'd love to hear substantial, pursuasive feedback.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. mard
    Offline

    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

    168
    61
    178
    Jul 20, 2021
    Male
    1:51 AM
    Out of curiosity, if shadow stars were not to be buffed to 3 minutes, would you consider it improved QOL for you if both booster and shadow partner's durations were instead reduced to 2 minutes so that they lined up?
     
  8. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,710
    1,103
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    8:51 AM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    To be fair, them disagreeing with your post over an argument that you consider weak is still perfectly valid.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Yes. However, Shadow Partner can’t take 2/3 of a Summoning rock to compensate. Maybe if the price were reduced to 2/3 the cost.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Yes. I’m specifically curious if they have a reason for disagreeing besides the one I mentioned. I tagged them because they reacted without leaving a reply like I asked.
     
  11. Tarnished
    Offline

    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

    204
    99
    210
    Jun 13, 2022
    Male
    11:51 PM
    Confessor, Tarnished, Hawthorn
    Hero
    200
    In an ideal world, QoL for all classes would be improved because it's 2023 and juggling buff timers isn't considered engaging gameplay anymore.

    But, as a private server, ML has limited resources and capabilities. Balance changes are few and far between. Any gameplay change comes with a lot of risk in dev time, economy, community opinion, etc so the cost:benefit needs to be accounted for. On the priority queue of classes who could use QoL improvements, NL sits dead last IMO.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Karn
    Offline

    Karn Mixed Golem

    169
    60
    173
    Jun 26, 2017
    Male
    3:51 AM
    Karn, Fayden
    Paladin, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Bowmaster, Buccaneer, Corsair
    200
    Favela
    The first comment to your thread pretty much covers my thought about this, that's why I didn't felt like adding anything else.

     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    That’s a fair point. I was under the impression that this sort of change would not be a difficult one developer wise seeing as it has already been done in the past. Shadow Star duration changed in 2022 and 2021. Corsair’s bullet capacity also changed in 2022. Perhaps changing Shadow Star star cost would be more complicated*. I’d love to know from a developer whether they thought this was not worth pursuing. You nor I are developers so we can only speculate. I’m glad you can agree with me that juggling buff-timers is not engaging gameplay and not worth preserving.

    *In the chance a change to Shadow Star star cost is more complicated than we think, an alternative would be to keep the cost at 200 as well as the capacity, and change star costs to match the average mesos/min on Shadow Star. Seeing as star cost changes has been done in the past, this can’t be too difficult.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
  14. Nightz
    Offline

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,874
    1,062
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    8:51 AM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    Regardless of what my opinion on this is, a change like this is not a lot of work from a developer standpoint.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    I think I'll leave one last message before giving up on this suggestion. It seems like a lot of people are against improving NL QoL judging by the amount of disagrees. I don't really understand why people feel the need to justify an inconvenience as if it provided any more fun. It's not like the game would be more fun with worse QoL. Yes, it's something to pay attention to, but I would argue that we should be striving to pay attention to the gameplay interactions and not which buff is unknowingly missing. I think it says something when the best and most frequent argument here for keeping an inconvenience is engagement. Who can genuinely say they enjoy playing the game because finding out which buff is missing is fun?

    Disregarding how easy Night Lords have it with their high avoid and simple play style, I believe every job across the board is entitled to the same QoL in sync'd up buff durations. I'd like for it to be considered rather than dismissed because of the stigma against NLs.
     
  16. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,334
    927
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    11:51 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Using QoL as justification is the weakest argument for any type of change because there is no end to QoL adjustments.
    That being said, it seems like you already answered yourself.

    People have been asking for NL nerfs for awhile.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  17. JKNS
    Offline

    JKNS Selkie Jr.

    203
    65
    215
    Sep 21, 2020
    1:51 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord
    I have always thought meso sinkage from stars was always too low considering NLs barely use potions at all, so star recharges should reflect some measure of balance. The extended time originally made sense in the context of the Shadow Star bug, where players cheesed their way through having functional MTKs and Furies without physically having the sets, but it became less necessary as people got the physical star sets.

    Synchronized buff timers are nice, but hardly necessary, especially for a class that is as seemingly un-nerfable by balance changes as NL. Plenty of classes get around desynchronized timers, and Shadow Star is already pretty nice with 2 Shadow Partner to 3 Shadow Star with functionally 0 skill delay. Just not a necessary change, and definitely not one I’d like to see implemented before a whole host of other potential better QoL fixes comparatively.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. brunandes
    Offline

    brunandes Windraider

    466
    38
    296
    Aug 29, 2021
    2:51 PM
    I don't agree with OP's suggestion but this is a garbage take. QoL suggestions have been made and accepted by staff all the time. You are saying we should not improve because there is always room for improvement.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,334
    927
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    11:51 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Changing for the sake of changing when there is no reason stated other than desire to change is an idiotic stance. You're posturing the change as an improvement but if there is no justification outside of "just because" then how can we know it's an improvement at all?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
  20. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    107
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    2:51 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Did you even read my original post?

    "there is no reason stated other than desire to change"
    This would align the durations of Night Lords' three attack buff abilities.

    "You're posturing the change as an improvement"

    Don't take it from me, take it from Nise who referred to the change in 2021 as a change to accommodate players.
    The only reason this change was reverted was because of the changes to address meso sinkage, which I addressed as well.

    "if there is no justification outside of "just because""
    The justification is that it aligns the three buff skills for Night Lords, making it more clear when a buff has ran out and making it easier to rebuff all three skills in one go.

    You may disagree that this is a change worth pursuing, but arguing that it's not an improvement to QoL is so ridiculously delusional. I will never understand defending mismatched buff durations.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023

Share This Page