Quests Reward MaxHP: An Alternative Path to HP Washing

Making questing a viable endeavor would be great, but I think the quest ring is the way to go instead. It just seems a bit more natural to implement compared to your idea.

 

Man i dont know how it can work, how hard is do something like and if it possible, but i loved the idea

 

Every hp washing related suggestion seems to not take into account that making it easier to get HP just makes DKs and other cleaves obsolete that much more quickly. Do we really want to see the ranged only character future faster than it's already happening?

 

Every possible suggestions that will include HB utility in mind will require a reset of some sort. Either soft resets from hyperwashed players (30kHP on ranged to 17kHP on ranged for example) or server-wide resets.
Until proper compensation that can both 1) justify the reset and 2) not cripple the economy and introduce sudden power spikes (eg, receiving a perf +7 weapon, or a +20 watk ring), there will be no suggestions that can prevent DKs from being obsolete

 

Why not just have Rino reward more HP/MP on the Monster Book Ring when she 'does more research' or have the Evolution Rings that the other versions of Maple Story had, I'm not sure if it would be implemented though.. not a lot of people like to quest and just grind/PQ.

 

I'd just like to quickly address that the main source of HP for people washing their ranged attackers comes from MP washing and not investing in INT gear. INT gear is not really a factor that anyone should be considering.

Additionally, it's unclear why you compare the rate at which non-DKs could get to 18.6k with the rate in which a DK gets 18.6k HP. The main problem with the suggestion is the fact that this would make it easier for ranged attackers to wash. Obviously it would be problematic if this made non-DKs able to achieve 18.6k at the same rate in which a DK could get 18.6k (given that they have very different HP formulas in the first place), but even if this were not the case, it is still problematic to make it easier for ranged attackers to wash.

The current class balance hinges upon a time trade-off: warriors can wash more easily and require less NX to reach end-game. Because of this, they can participate in a small portion of the end-game content (notably berga, toad, and PB) without washing as much as a ranged character. This is a very tangible benefit and a big reason as to why I and many others had even made a warrior in the first place. On the other hand, ranged classes must wash if they want to participate in that small section of end-game content. But even without hp-giving quests AND hp washing, it is still possible to play a ranged character and enjoy the majority of the game: refer to this guide by akash to read the details.

On the other hand, if we were to introduce quests that gave HP and as you propose, increase a characters HP by perhaps 4000-5000 HP, then this would make HP washing completely optional to participate in all content for ranged attackers. You might assume that this is a good thing but I would disagree; there would be little reason to make many of the classes in the game (notably warriors and shadowers). Furthermore, HP gains affect different classes disproportionately; whereas warriors gain much more HP from a single wash, ranged characters gain much less. Thus, if we were to effectively increase a base ranged attackers HP by 4-5k, it helps these ranged attackers disproportionately cut the amount of NX required to wash. A base percentage HP increase also obviously disproportionately favors ranged attackers (increasing a ranged attackers HP from 7k to 12k is very different from increasing a warrior's HP from 15k to 20k). Note that this issue remains regardless of how you tweak the numbers unless you propose that the quests will give different classes different amounts of HP as well.

This isn't even really so much about the utility of HB being diminished with this suggestion, but the fact that ranged characters are strictly better than cleavers (warriors) in the current bossing meta. There is no reason to accelerate the development of the budding ranged-only meta, and this suggestion would do just that.

 

make a new character..? do all the quests again..? 5000 - 7,000 maxHP..? hmmmmm

 

Bit of a tangent and I'm not really directing this at you specifically but I think that ultimately all HP-related suggestions should be viewed with the assumption that eventually cleave-friendly content will be added or that content will be made more cleave-friendly because the alternative is accepting that DKs (and cleave) are doomed, whether their state continues to degrade slowly or quickly, and that staff is content with that, which is a very bleak outlook to start from. If the writing is already on the wall, we may as just embrace the conclusion that lies at the end, delete the hero and DK classes (I'd say shad too but they at least serve a purpose as sed mules) and have all new players start with paladins or mages, lest we appear to others as a dying generation trying desperately to block change only to prolong the inevitable. That being said, I would be cautiously optimistic for changes that make the game more inclusive for cleavers.

Cleave classes being objectively inferior to ranged classes in effectively all bossing respects and HP washing being the only reason the former have any relevance at all has always been a rather unhealthy and unsavory dynamic and cleave players shouldn't try to cling onto it and have it be the hill they die on; they deserve better than that. There should instead be more voice given to proposals and suggestions for how to make cleavers relevant than merely staunch opposition towards any changes that make the game more "washing optional", as much as I understand where people are coming from. It's the way it's always been in ML because of neckson's poor design but it doesn't have to be this way. Making it only ever about HP is implicit acceptance that cleave has no real future and that they will forever be second-class citizens. Cleave can still hold onto a washing advantage but it shouldn't be their raison d'etre if one is really trying to advocate for them. Cleave deserves better than just barely clinging onto existence with the foothold that is HP washing. Opposing slight HP improvements on the basis that they marginalize cleave is effectively already giving up.

#QuestRing

 

DKs will likely be muled for HB at PB just as shads are muled at horntail as sed mules, but unfortunately it's unclear how exactly the end-game content would even be made more cleave-friendly. My main opposition to this / any other HP washing related suggestions meant to make HP washing easier is on the basis that while cleaves are objectively worse in bossing respects, at least they can be enjoyed without requiring extensive washing. I wouldn't say that this means that cleaves and DKs are doomed necessarily, as there will always be new players who need HB/aren't washed enough to participate in certain content.

As a result, cleaves can continue to serve as an entry class for new players (as it did for me as well). Making HP washing easier just means that even this purpose is removed with no real compensation. Perhaps that's where making "cleave-friendly" content would come in, but how exactly would one envision that given all of the currently available end-game content?

 

Something a bit more optional would be nice, I feel like a quest ring / max hp from quests would make a lot of people feel forced to go out of their way to do quests they otherwise wouldn't do. There might be better ways to help new players gain more hp which wouldn't have to inconvenience people that dislike doing quests. Maybe some kind of level ring which you can upgrade every couple of levels and for a fee of mesos.

 

Isn't this the exact same thing that happens with monsterbook? At least let's keep the additional HP gains limited to those who are willing to put in the effort to get them.

 

I don't dislike the idea but I will say that HP is impossible to balance on the curent state of the game, a whipe would be needed and I don't want that since that would throw away all my progress and time spent on this server. HP is also hard to balance since jobs have different effective HP values: Mages have 5 times their HP with MG and if you are a Bishop 7 times from physical damage and even 10 times when they take elemental damage. Shadowers have double the HP and if they are high level they have a 80% chance of taking 0 dmg. Paladin and Hero are equally tanky, easy to wash so getting cap HP is easy but their resistance % are lower than the jobs mentioned before with 15% from achiles and 40% from physical damage thanks to PG (Half if is a Boss), also keep in mind % múltiply they don't add, the low avoid can make a 1/1 (whitch this game loves to spash to most bosses) + lag be pretty fatal, especially on a seduce; DK is the oposite having a lower effective HP if you want to deal damage, they do have double HP if they are struck with elemental damage but sadly physical damage is the one that does the most. Buccaneer has 0 damage resistance so even at cap HP you need to look for things like PB masive touch dmg or the HT tail touch but we have the yolo factor where you sometimes the I.Frames hit just right. NL HP ratio is 1/1 but because they barely get hit make HP far more valuable than other jobs, I would say a sed NL with 15k HP has more chances to survive a sed without a Bishop than a Bucc or a Warrior (Especially because 1/1 says nope).

 

Making defense more valuable Will increase the effective HP of all jobs so those who washed more will get far more from this change than unwashed people. Let's say this trully makes washing optional, no excuses of yeah you can kill snails until you get lv200 and doing any Boss is just optional nonsense, in that case washing would be still the meta, and not much would change but those who want to play the game more casually would have a better time, with that part I totally agree but those who go far washing would get so much more, we could say it would make the game far easier? Altho at this point I do think that nothing in this game is or will ever be challenging, at the end of the day HP is all about do you get 1 shoted? Anything after that is just how often do you have to press the pot key, or will the pot press register, or will the god damn pet work....
Anyway I digress, the whipe thing would be because to avoid these OP washed guys to become more OP you would have to start from 0 and disable washing and then tune down the damage numbers because pre BB damage is retarded. This comes from a cap HP bucc working on an 15k+ HP Bishop haha. I love your endeavors, no one likes washing and lately bosses do pack quite a punch , back then 5.5K HP was the standard to HT on a ranged attacker now is barely cutting it. I digress more, haha bye and GL with your Mapling!

 

I can see how Monsterbook rings could have inconvenienced some players, but at least it gave utility to monster cards which felt a bit more reasonable since they weren't worthwhile to collect. Having a quest ring on the other hand would put people that started questing late at a much greater disadvantage since they would be getting negligible exp and negligible rewards.
Grinding mobs for cards is a bit less optional since you can't really progress in the game without killing mobs. At least people working towards a tier ring could be getting gacha, nx and event items, and if they started late and are already high level they could take advantage of their stronger skills. Also getting maxhp and washing is not a very casual goal, so the majority of players that really need that ring would be higher levels many of which would be getting the shorter end of the stick if they didn't quest throughout early levels.