1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Quests Reward MaxHP: An Alternative Path to HP Washing

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Estrahl, Feb 14, 2022.

  1. Estrahl
    Offline

    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

    270
    164
    251
    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    8:12 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    I’ve been pondering for a while about how to tackle the HP washing situation. For sure, it’s an issue unique to this version, and will likely always be a side effect of wanting to play on a nostalgic private server.

    Maple Legends has but one path for dealing with HP washing, and that is with AP resets via the vote system. I have no real qualms about the system, but I always believe variety is the spice of life and gaming. Being able to choose different paths, even if they are more time consuming(not saying this is or isn't), is still a net positive in my book.

    I’d like to also note that I am not really a technical sort of person. As this idea is fairly fresh in my mind, relatively speaking, I don’t have the nitty gritty worked out. This is just a concept, and I believe the concept matters more than the specifics, especially since nothing is guaranteed. Details like that can be worked out over time, can be addressed as they come up, as new meta methods are developed and as the balance team decides what is healthy for the game and what pushes the envelope too far into exploitative mechanics.


    My proposition is to add a varying amount of maxHP to all non-repeatable, non-event, non-boss related quests.

    This would not make washing pointless, nor would it reasonably replace washing altogether as a more viable/faster alternative. I wager it would likely have the same effect as the current state of the game, but it would also allow people a sort of starting point in their HP washing without a ton of prior investment. Rather than having to dump 200-400 INT(doing the math, that’s 40-80 levels of purely dumping INT, or at least moving MP into INT), they can actually enjoy the early and mid-game experience that a nostalgic server is supposed to promote.

    More of an anecdote, but I can’t tell you how many times I ran a PQ, and someone asked to join and they couldn’t contribute anything to the party. One character isn’t a huge deal, but it sets a precedent that no one really should feel obligated to comply with—the idea that people who want to perfect their builds early should be carried and shouldn’t feel guilty for dragging a party down. It becomes a problem when even just two players can’t pull their own weight. I don’t think players should feel obligated to carry sandbags, and I don’t think players should feel obligated to go to such extremes to nuke their mid-game experience just to be able to play efficiently in the end game.

    There are reasonably two ways the balance/dev team could hash this out. The first way is more of a blanket add on, but might make things a bit easier to plan out, you just add maxHP to every quest based on their level. The second way would be to take quests into chunks, group them a bit like quest chains, and the final quest in the chain would give a bonus equal to the amount of quests done plus whatever level the quest is recommended for.

    Personally I think the second way has more value, but the first way allows pure customization in which quests you will take. Obviously not every quest out there has multiple parts, but I think it would just be less of a headache to add maxHP to some quests rather than every quest, and making some of those rewards delayed until the end of a chain makes it easier to provide larger rewards.

    Inevitably people will value some quests over others, but that shouldn’t be a reason not to do something.

    Overall, I would think as low as 3000 maxHP could be distributed through quest completion. An average I would hope to see, from someone completing, let’s say, 60% of all the quests available, is 4500-5000 maxHP.

    • All of the Maple Island quests(there are about 46) would give around 50-75 extra maxHP.
    • I would imagine by level 30, the average amount of quests completed would give you an additional 350-400 maxHP. Maybe more. This would be a huge bonus for mages, bandits and ranged classes by this point, but isn’t so much that they can ignore damage taken.
    • If BenQ were to make a new character and do all the quests again, they would expect to gain 5000-7,000 maxHP for their efforts. Maybe more, I can’t really contemplate how much could be reasonably distributed among over 1200 quests.


    The main points behind this concept are to:

    • Encourage players to do more quests, increasing the value of quests on an individual level, and making the rewards for doing quests feel like it contributes long term to end-game content
    • Give new players a head start in HP washing that doesn’t negate the efforts veterans have already put into their characters, as well as give said veterans an easier time when making new characters that won’t make their older characters feel like a waste of time
    • Reduce the amount of time overall it would take to HP wash, but not by an amount that could be quantified by vote time restrictions(such as arguments to make AP resets cost less, or arguments that ask for HP washing to take only 6 months instead of 1 year, etc)
    • Encourage players not to invest so much into a stat that is worthless for 80% of classes. Inevitably people will invest In INT anyways, but this makes it so new players don’t feel like they have to start over because they didn’t invest early on, and veterans don’t have to invest quite so much just to hit their goal
    • Gets rid of the idea that you have to have 5 accounts to vote with, and play a bunch of classes you may not want to play specifically to fund and grind the one character you actually want to play. I know no one "has to" do this, but it's become something of an expectation new players shouldn't even have to consider, but they inevitably come to the forums and that's the general advice they are given. It's bad advice for what is supposed to be a nostalgic experience.


    Thoughts? Discussion is always welcome. Criticism is also welcome, granted it contributes to the conversation. Again, this isn’t supposed to be extremely comprehensive, the major details are meant to be worked out over time, not solved right away. I don’t think the overarching conversation about HP washing has a simple solution, if any at all.
     
    • Creative Creative x 6
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  2. Snork
    Offline

    Snork Capt. Latanica

    339
    384
    278
    Feb 19, 2018
    5:12 PM
    Snorf
    Paladin
    Lore
    Making questing a viable endeavor would be great, but I think the quest ring is the way to go instead. It just seems a bit more natural to implement compared to your idea.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. OP
    OP
    Estrahl
    Offline

    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

    270
    164
    251
    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    8:12 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    I also like the quest ring idea. I think that would be a good implementation on its own, but I also think that it's probably just as easy to just add a reward line in a quest that adds a stat as it is to add a completely new item.

    Then again, I've never seen the coding for a quest so I could very well be ignorant of the ease of implementing that, but I can't see it being much more difficult than the quest ring. I don't think the two would make each other superfluous, either, I could see a world where both could be implemented in the same game.
     
  4. LeonardoJF
    Online

    LeonardoJF Zakum

    1,734
    313
    460
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    1:12 PM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
    Man i dont know how it can work, how hard is do something like and if it possible, but i loved the idea
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. mard
    Offline

    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

    164
    60
    178
    Jul 20, 2021
    Male
    10:12 AM
    Every hp washing related suggestion seems to not take into account that making it easier to get HP just makes DKs and other cleaves obsolete that much more quickly. Do we really want to see the ranged only character future faster than it's already happening?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. Cak33
    Offline

    Cak33 Headless Horseman

    819
    342
    371
    Oct 24, 2019
    Male
    12:12 AM
    NotCut3
    Hero
    172
    Active
    Every possible suggestions that will include HB utility in mind will require a reset of some sort. Either soft resets from hyperwashed players (30kHP on ranged to 17kHP on ranged for example) or server-wide resets.
    Until proper compensation that can both 1) justify the reset and 2) not cripple the economy and introduce sudden power spikes (eg, receiving a perf +7 weapon, or a +20 watk ring), there will be no suggestions that can prevent DKs from being obsolete
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. UnknownCode
    Offline

    UnknownCode Nightshadow

    677
    229
    350
    Jun 6, 2021
    California
    8:12 AM
    Islander, Bishop, Bandit
    0
    Speenies
    Why not just have Rino reward more HP/MP on the Monster Book Ring when she 'does more research' or have the Evolution Rings that the other versions of Maple Story had, I'm not sure if it would be implemented though.. not a lot of people like to quest and just grind/PQ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. OP
    OP
    Estrahl
    Offline

    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

    270
    164
    251
    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    8:12 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    Unless these implementations make it so that non-DKs can get to 18.6k in equal or less time than a DK, I don't think that will actually be a problem. It seems like an unnecessary worry as long as it's a fairly low upgrade. The average 4500-5000 maxHP gained over 60% of all quests isn't going to happen within weeks. I think that sort of worry underestimates how long it takes to actually do that many quests.

    Remember it's the concept that I'm focusing on, I'd take any suggestions happily, especially if people are worried the numbers might be too high. Keep the numbers solid enough and it won't make DKs obsolete, it'll just help everyone else not have to invest so heavily into INT gear to wash the rest of their maxHP.

    The proposal also assumes this would only apply to newly completed quests. Everyone who already completed quests wouldn't be grandfathered to receive any maxHP bonuses. It's a tough call but I think it would benefit the community to not have a bunch of people suddenly rocket up 2000hp in a single patch. Everyone would either have to stick to their current plan, adjust and start doing quests they never bothered with(which would then have better incentives for them anyways), or make a new character(I doubt people will give up on their current character entirely, unless it was at a relatively low level to begin with).

    This is supposed to encourage people to quest, give another incentive and ideally not make it feel like a chore. It's not about whether or not they like to. It's more about giving people another option that doesn't make new players quit over the daunting task of "efficiently playing." It slows the grind down a bit, lets people enjoy the early and mid game again without the fear of becoming obsolete by the time they hit 120 and actually start thinking about end game potential.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. mard
    Offline

    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

    164
    60
    178
    Jul 20, 2021
    Male
    10:12 AM
    I'd just like to quickly address that the main source of HP for people washing their ranged attackers comes from MP washing and not investing in INT gear. INT gear is not really a factor that anyone should be considering.

    Additionally, it's unclear why you compare the rate at which non-DKs could get to 18.6k with the rate in which a DK gets 18.6k HP. The main problem with the suggestion is the fact that this would make it easier for ranged attackers to wash. Obviously it would be problematic if this made non-DKs able to achieve 18.6k at the same rate in which a DK could get 18.6k (given that they have very different HP formulas in the first place), but even if this were not the case, it is still problematic to make it easier for ranged attackers to wash.

    The current class balance hinges upon a time trade-off: warriors can wash more easily and require less NX to reach end-game. Because of this, they can participate in a small portion of the end-game content (notably berga, toad, and PB) without washing as much as a ranged character. This is a very tangible benefit and a big reason as to why I and many others had even made a warrior in the first place. On the other hand, ranged classes must wash if they want to participate in that small section of end-game content. But even without hp-giving quests AND hp washing, it is still possible to play a ranged character and enjoy the majority of the game: refer to this guide by akash to read the details.

    On the other hand, if we were to introduce quests that gave HP and as you propose, increase a characters HP by perhaps 4000-5000 HP, then this would make HP washing completely optional to participate in all content for ranged attackers. You might assume that this is a good thing but I would disagree; there would be little reason to make many of the classes in the game (notably warriors and shadowers). Furthermore, HP gains affect different classes disproportionately; whereas warriors gain much more HP from a single wash, ranged characters gain much less. Thus, if we were to effectively increase a base ranged attackers HP by 4-5k, it helps these ranged attackers disproportionately cut the amount of NX required to wash. A base percentage HP increase also obviously disproportionately favors ranged attackers (increasing a ranged attackers HP from 7k to 12k is very different from increasing a warrior's HP from 15k to 20k). Note that this issue remains regardless of how you tweak the numbers unless you propose that the quests will give different classes different amounts of HP as well.

    This isn't even really so much about the utility of HB being diminished with this suggestion, but the fact that ranged characters are strictly better than cleavers (warriors) in the current bossing meta. There is no reason to accelerate the development of the budding ranged-only meta, and this suggestion would do just that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. benQ
    Offline

    benQ Pac Pinky

    189
    113
    196
    Oct 14, 2016
    Male
    12:12 AM
    benQ
    Bishop
    185
    maple
    make a new character..? do all the quests again..? 5000 - 7,000 maxHP..? hmmmmm :angelic:
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  11. Gurk
    Offline

    Gurk Nightshadow

    668
    445
    350
    Mar 9, 2020
    Male
    8:12 AM
    Gxrk
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    Bit of a tangent and I'm not really directing this at you specifically but I think that ultimately all HP-related suggestions should be viewed with the assumption that eventually cleave-friendly content will be added or that content will be made more cleave-friendly because the alternative is accepting that DKs (and cleave) are doomed, whether their state continues to degrade slowly or quickly, and that staff is content with that, which is a very bleak outlook to start from. If the writing is already on the wall, we may as just embrace the conclusion that lies at the end, delete the hero and DK classes (I'd say shad too but they at least serve a purpose as sed mules) and have all new players start with paladins or mages, lest we appear to others as a dying generation trying desperately to block change only to prolong the inevitable. That being said, I would be cautiously optimistic for changes that make the game more inclusive for cleavers.

    Cleave classes being objectively inferior to ranged classes in effectively all bossing respects and HP washing being the only reason the former have any relevance at all has always been a rather unhealthy and unsavory dynamic and cleave players shouldn't try to cling onto it and have it be the hill they die on; they deserve better than that. There should instead be more voice given to proposals and suggestions for how to make cleavers relevant than merely staunch opposition towards any changes that make the game more "washing optional", as much as I understand where people are coming from. It's the way it's always been in ML because of neckson's poor design but it doesn't have to be this way. Making it only ever about HP is implicit acceptance that cleave has no real future and that they will forever be second-class citizens. Cleave can still hold onto a washing advantage but it shouldn't be their raison d'etre if one is really trying to advocate for them. Cleave deserves better than just barely clinging onto existence with the foothold that is HP washing. Opposing slight HP improvements on the basis that they marginalize cleave is effectively already giving up.

    #QuestRing
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
  12. mard
    Offline

    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

    164
    60
    178
    Jul 20, 2021
    Male
    10:12 AM
    DKs will likely be muled for HB at PB just as shads are muled at horntail as sed mules, but unfortunately it's unclear how exactly the end-game content would even be made more cleave-friendly. My main opposition to this / any other HP washing related suggestions meant to make HP washing easier is on the basis that while cleaves are objectively worse in bossing respects, at least they can be enjoyed without requiring extensive washing. I wouldn't say that this means that cleaves and DKs are doomed necessarily, as there will always be new players who need HB/aren't washed enough to participate in certain content.

    As a result, cleaves can continue to serve as an entry class for new players (as it did for me as well). Making HP washing easier just means that even this purpose is removed with no real compensation. Perhaps that's where making "cleave-friendly" content would come in, but how exactly would one envision that given all of the currently available end-game content?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. OP
    OP
    Estrahl
    Offline

    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

    270
    164
    251
    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    8:12 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    In other games where cleaves are present, either forcing 1HP or doing a set %, normal damage still exists around it, so maybe a map-wide spell might force everyone 1HP, but the main damage inflicting on the frontliners is still significant enough to make Warriors, Buccaneers and Shadowers require higher amounts of HP.

    But those games also tend to be pretty mechanic-heavy. Often times a 1HP/Percentile mechanic would cause the boss to stop dealing damage long enough for healers to react to the damage and heal up just enough to survive the next big attack. But healers are also expected to deal damage beyond healspam in those game as well.

    I'm not sure MapleLegends can really compete or compare with those ideas, not unless you uproot the AI and input something that people have to work around, which sounds really fun in a 2D platforming space don't get me wrong, but I just don't see how the staff would have the will or the resources to dedicate that to every major boss in the game, if not just the late/end-game bosses.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. halfwaysleet
    Offline

    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

    90
    26
    111
    May 21, 2018
    Male
    1:12 PM
    halfway
    Thief
    24
    Something a bit more optional would be nice, I feel like a quest ring / max hp from quests would make a lot of people feel forced to go out of their way to do quests they otherwise wouldn't do. There might be better ways to help new players gain more hp which wouldn't have to inconvenience people that dislike doing quests. Maybe some kind of level ring which you can upgrade every couple of levels and for a fee of mesos.
     
  15. OP
    OP
    Estrahl
    Offline

    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

    270
    164
    251
    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    8:12 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    You're right in the fact that it's very nuanced. The way I talk about, I can see why it looks like I'm sort of throwing a blanket on hilly terrain and expecting it all to lay flat. The figures I've provided again are just throwing an idea out there, it could be 3k it could be 4k, it could just be 2k. I think the specific number is always something that should be discussed, or whether that number should change per class or even per subclass. Maybe the major HP increases could just be added to job-specific quests, and keep all the other quests relatively low by comparison? So outside of job specific quests(intro quests, advancement quests, etc) the amount you'd expect is maybe something like 1k-2.5k, and based on the class you play the job quests would give you more.

    It's mostly to help the mid-game players who feel like they've wasted a few weeks to a few months of gameplay just to realize that they can't reasonably expect to play in higher level content without completely starting over. Most people just quit at that point. Maybe to some that's a good thing, but personally I think it's not healthy for the server in the long run.

    The important thing to me is allowing players to tackle their hp washing as early as the beginning of the game, at their own pace, without having to worry or even think about washing up until the point where it will actually matter to them. Maybe we'll see more people hitting 4th job and above that way. Lowering the bar just enough so that players can reach it without having to dump time and resources into several other characters, or without spending upwards of a year to get enough vote cash points to spend on AP resets, is a good idea.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,666
    1,081
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    5:12 PM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    Isn't this the exact same thing that happens with monsterbook? At least let's keep the additional HP gains limited to those who are willing to put in the effort to get them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. KurayamiLove
    Offline

    KurayamiLove Skelegon

    951
    753
    413
    Mar 15, 2015
    Male
    Nautilus
    5:12 PM
    KurayamiLove/Nagrom/Amatista
    Buccaneer
    69
    Halcyon
    I don't dislike the idea but I will say that HP is impossible to balance on the curent state of the game, a whipe would be needed and I don't want that since that would throw away all my progress and time spent on this server. HP is also hard to balance since jobs have different effective HP values: Mages have 5 times their HP with MG and if you are a Bishop 7 times from physical damage and even 10 times when they take elemental damage. Shadowers have double the HP and if they are high level they have a 80% chance of taking 0 dmg. Paladin and Hero are equally tanky, easy to wash so getting cap HP is easy but their resistance % are lower than the jobs mentioned before with 15% from achiles and 40% from physical damage thanks to PG (Half if is a Boss), also keep in mind % múltiply they don't add, the low avoid can make a 1/1 (whitch this game loves to spash to most bosses) + lag be pretty fatal, especially on a seduce; DK is the oposite having a lower effective HP if you want to deal damage, they do have double HP if they are struck with elemental damage but sadly physical damage is the one that does the most. Buccaneer has 0 damage resistance so even at cap HP you need to look for things like PB masive touch dmg or the HT tail touch but we have the yolo factor where you sometimes the I.Frames hit just right. NL HP ratio is 1/1 but because they barely get hit make HP far more valuable than other jobs, I would say a sed NL with 15k HP has more chances to survive a sed without a Bishop than a Bucc or a Warrior (Especially because 1/1 says nope).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. OP
    OP
    Estrahl
    Offline

    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

    270
    164
    251
    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    8:12 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    While I don't agree that a wipe is needed, I do think that if they ever get around to making any changes, def/m.def will be the big defining thing. I think it needs a new formula in general, it's far too basic(not that simple formulas are bad, just in this case it doesn't entirely work out).

    Ironically, if they ever make def/m.def work out, it'll probably make Shield Mastery extremely powerful and Shadowers will both never get hit and rarely take damage lol
     
  19. KurayamiLove
    Offline

    KurayamiLove Skelegon

    951
    753
    413
    Mar 15, 2015
    Male
    Nautilus
    5:12 PM
    KurayamiLove/Nagrom/Amatista
    Buccaneer
    69
    Halcyon
    Making defense more valuable Will increase the effective HP of all jobs so those who washed more will get far more from this change than unwashed people. Let's say this trully makes washing optional, no excuses of yeah you can kill snails until you get lv200 and doing any Boss is just optional nonsense, in that case washing would be still the meta, and not much would change but those who want to play the game more casually would have a better time, with that part I totally agree but those who go far washing would get so much more, we could say it would make the game far easier? Altho at this point I do think that nothing in this game is or will ever be challenging, at the end of the day HP is all about do you get 1 shoted? Anything after that is just how often do you have to press the pot key, or will the pot press register, or will the god damn pet work....
    Anyway I digress, the whipe thing would be because to avoid these OP washed guys to become more OP you would have to start from 0 and disable washing and then tune down the damage numbers because pre BB damage is retarded. This comes from a cap HP bucc working on an 15k+ HP Bishop haha. I love your endeavors, no one likes washing and lately bosses do pack quite a punch , back then 5.5K HP was the standard to HT on a ranged attacker now is barely cutting it. I digress more, haha bye and GL with your Mapling!
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  20. halfwaysleet
    Offline

    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

    90
    26
    111
    May 21, 2018
    Male
    1:12 PM
    halfway
    Thief
    24
    I can see how Monsterbook rings could have inconvenienced some players, but at least it gave utility to monster cards which felt a bit more reasonable since they weren't worthwhile to collect. Having a quest ring on the other hand would put people that started questing late at a much greater disadvantage since they would be getting negligible exp and negligible rewards.
    Grinding mobs for cards is a bit less optional since you can't really progress in the game without killing mobs. At least people working towards a tier ring could be getting gacha, nx and event items, and if they started late and are already high level they could take advantage of their stronger skills. Also getting maxhp and washing is not a very casual goal, so the majority of players that really need that ring would be higher levels many of which would be getting the shorter end of the stick if they didn't quest throughout early levels.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page