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Wahhh Timeless List Bad

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Gurk, May 12, 2023.

  1. Gurk

    Gurk Headless Horseman

    Mar 9, 2020
    1:36 AM
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair

    Prior to their revamp, all three timeless shields, i.e. Timeless Kite, Timeless Prelude and Timeless List, were originally unusable npc fodder that were rolled away. With the aforementioned revamp, the number of slots on the three shields was increased from 7 to 10. Furthermore, the Timeless List (henceforth abbreviated as TLL) was given attack (8 - 10) where it previously had none.

    The above changes made all three shields best-in-slot; however, the TLL continues to be worse than its Dragon Khanjar (henceforth abbreviated as dkhan) counterpart in practically all but the perfect shield scenario. For those unfamiliar with the shield situation, I will lay it out below.

    A perfect dkhan has 17 ATT, 3 LUK and 7 slots.
    Case 1: 7 60/70s
    31 ATT, 3 LUK and 7 STR
    Case 2: 7 10/30s
    38 ATT, 3 LUK and 14 STR

    A perfect TLL has 10 ATT, 6 LUK and 10 slots.
    Case 1: 10 60/70s
    30 ATT, 6 LUK, and 10 STR
    Case 2: 10 60/70s
    40 ATT, 6 LUK and 20 STR

    *After leveling the TLL will gain another 0-5 each of LUK/DEX/STR
    **TLL requires 10 more dex to equip than the dkhan

    For an end game shad with perfect gears, 1 LUK is equal to roughly 3.8 STR/DEX and 1 ATT is equal to roughly 5 LUK. Therefore if we assume an average roll of +2.5 across all stats on the TLL, we can convert the above numbers to the more easily comparable format below:

    Dragon Khanjar
    Case 1: 7 60/70s:
    31.97 ATT
    Case 2: 7 10/30s
    39.34 ATT


    Case 1: 10 60/70s:
    30.49 ATT (using kanzir)
    31.49 ATT (using NT)
    32.49 ATT (using TL)
    Case 2: 10 10/30s:
    41.02 ATT (using kanzir)
    42.02 ATT (using NT)
    43.02 ATT (using TL)

    The numbers given for TLL take into account the increased DEX requirement, which is a nonfactor if also using TL dagger.

    From the above, we can see that scrolling a TLL with 60/70s is simply a waste of time and resources. Even if using a TL dagger, it is tremendously more difficult (about 3x harder) to scroll a TLL comparable to a dkhan given the additional number of slots. In fact, for scrolling a TLL to have any real merit over scrolling a dkhan at all one will need to land 10 10/30s on it if using a kanzir, 9 if using NT, and 8 if using TL. In other words, you quite literally have to be in the process (and very deep into it, at that) of perfecting a shield for there to be any world where using a TLL is advantageous.

    So let's briefly entertain this extremely niche perfect shield scenario. If we ignore for the time being the fact that it really is not feasible to get a perfect TLL project going with the current supply (unless this suggestion goes through, insert shameless plug), we can say that making a 40 att TLL will cost one on average about 7.2-7.4k coins (3-4 30s followed by 6-7 ws10s). It's probably safe to say that if one has embarked on such an arduous journey to scroll an untradeable shield, one also has a finished TL dagger and so the net benefit over a perfect dkhan is just under 4 att, which has a cost efficiency of about 750 coins/att.

    To arrive at the point at which this is palatable, one must first also have 21+ att gloves, 15+ att cape, and 5+ att stompers in addition to other auxiliary gears, or in other words one must have first invested at least 60b into their gears before looking towards spending an additional 25b on a TLL upgrade. It's worth noting that at the point at which this hypothetical shad has finished their TLL they will have spent over 40% more on gears than other non-shield wielding classes. You probably get the picture. For further context, there currently only exists one perfect shield 8 years into the server (including across warriors and mages) and that is a 40 att dkhan, the shield equivalent of 23 att gloves, which would have a lower net cost of about 7k coins to make and still be better than a perfect TLL for kanzir users.

    While a perfect TLL is technically better than a perfect dkhan by an acceptable enough margin (if using TL dagger), I hope that I don't have to make the case (for this is already lengthier than it should be) for why it makes for poor design to have an end game equip be utterly moot until one has first finished at least 8-9 slots. The slots change is a bit of a pitfall because it to a degree necessitates from a design perspective that the 10 slot shield be worse than the 7 slot shield (under non-perfecting circumstances) unless almost all the scrolls pass, assuming one is being dutifully mindful of the attack ceiling and powercreep. It made sense on the Kite and the Prelude as the previous best-in-slot shields for those respective classes already featured 10 slots (MWS and MMS) but it only needlessly complicates the balancing situation for the TLL.

    In order for a non-perf TLL project to be at all worth pursuing over a dkhan under more traditional circumstances (i.e. finishing with solely 60s and 70s), it would need at least another 4 or 5 att. This would of course however mean that the ceiling would move by the same amount, which could be seen as going too far (perf TLL would be effectively 8-9 att better than perf dkhan if using TL dagger at that point). This situation is exacerbated by the fact that one must land more scrolls for less or comparable benefit than with a dkhan while also giving up tradeability and resale value when upgrading later down the line. So it is no surprise then that the TLL is by and large undesirable fodder.

    Hey, it only took 998 words to get here.

    I am suggesting that the TLL be revamped to have its number of slots reverted back to 7 and have its max base attack increased from 10 to 19. This would put it roughly in line with the 2 att advantage that the Kite shield affords over MWS under non-perfect scrolling conditions while also removing the need to raise the ceiling (att of perfect TLL remains 40). With this change, the dkhan vs. TLL comparison becomes significantly more palatable as demonstrated below.

    Dragon Khanjar:
    Case 1: 7 60/70s:
    31.97 ATT
    Case 2: 7 10/30s
    39.34 ATT

    Case 1: 7 60/70s:
    33.33 ATT (using kanzir)
    34.33 ATT (using NT)
    35.33 ATT (using TL)
    Case 2: 7 10/30s:
    40.70 ATT (using kanzir)
    41.70 ATT (using NT)
    42.70 ATT (using TL)

    As we can see from the above, even a typical kanzir/gdk user would already see a slight benefit from using a TLL over a dkhan under equivalent scrolling (whereas it was a net loss before), and NT and TL users would see further gains. I would argue that this scrolling scheme makes significantly more sense than the current iteration of the TLL which exists solely as a paperweight until one lands at least 8-9 10/30s on it. This change would also of course greatly reduce the exorbitant cost of perfecting a TLL and make it a more feasible project to work on should one choose to do so, and further the priority of the shield slot for ride-or-die shad players. I'd say something about this change marginally increasing the EV of PB by way of increasing the value of RoT should shields be made craftable or something but that'd just be reaching.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 12, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 5
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  2. Palladino

    Palladino Master Chronos

    Apr 26, 2020
    10:36 AM
    Hello, Gurk!

    We strive to improve our service every single day, so it truly means the world to me that you've taken the time out of your day to help us become an even better version of ourselves. Thank you for your input and have a lovely day onwards!

    Kind regards,
    Funk Hospitality Group
    • Great Work Great Work x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. LeonardoJF

    LeonardoJF Horntail

    Jun 16, 2021
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    5:36 AM
    I would like to see these shields without needing strength to equip them, giving a new concept to nt dagger and to reverse/tl killic
  4. porcos

    porcos Blue Snail

    Feb 1, 2022
    5:36 AM
    UP!! Or maybe can be like TLL 7 slots with max 13Att and gain 0~2att per lv.
    Keep the average attack similar to Dkhan, but have potential to go further!
    And also add to craft timeless shields!
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1

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