Nerf Demolition IED, Reduce Super Transform uptime, or list it as a MapleLegends feature

Hence the three-part suggestion tree. I'm not asking for both Demo IED and ST uptime to get nerfed, but either one of the first two nerfs should suffice.
If none of the above, then I'd want staff to at least acknowledge that Buccs doing top tier damage while playing a critical utility role is intended.

Now here's the meat.

If in staff's eyes it is okay to prop up the population of an essential class like Buccs through DPM, why shouldn't other classes like DKs, who serve to be a central piece to this year+ long rollout of the challenge system, be brought up in that same regard? What's holding down warrior classes from being buffed up to the status of buccs? Even if warriors were buffed up to be on an even field with Buccs DPM-wise, they'd still be harder to play, provide less utility, carry more risk (str avoid formula when), and burn through way more pots, and they'd still probably be a less popular party candidate than other options.

 

My guess is that Staff don't want power creep to come in the form of more classes doing higher damage, thus bringing the average DPM of all classes higher.
This problem could be diffused by bringing the top classes down closer to the average, giving more room for other classes to be comparable.

It still doesn't answer the question of whether it's considered balanced that a utility role should also be doing comparable damage to other classes.

That being said, I think a pseudo-utility that a lot of people forget that Night Lords have is a means to lower risk of failure through their survivability. Even if Night Lords did 10% less damage, they'd still be the favorite class on runs like PB because they can soak up all the seds when shit goes south. People often justify Night Lords having high damage because that's all they offer - which isn't completely true. They make runs possible, which is a huge utility IMO.

 

Why stick to rigid definitions when we have the freedom to define things however we want in this space?

NLs and Shadowers add a ton of stability to PB runs by dying less frequently than others. I'm not sure if you've been through bird-first runs, but they can get messy really quickly based on mistakes or bad RNG - when some people get caught up in sed, die, and put more fragile people into sed, thus putting more and more people in danger. It's the fastest way to fail a run about 20 minutes in, even with all the resources of res and TL at hand. By that point, 18+ people have used at least 2 apples already or 100m+ worth of apples. Just having NLs and Shads just on your run, despite their damage - of which its shortcomings can be easily resolved with more apple usage - increase the chance of your run not scuffing. In the current state of PB, I'd hazard a guess that having competent NLs or Shads in your comp contributes more your run's success than some other 'traditional utility' classes like SE (can be muled and passed around, only need 1 for expedition clear), HB (can rely on other 30k washed players), or SI. Smoke doesn't really do much in terms of survivability in PB and is more a DPM booster. The only other skills that falls under the utility category of 'run insurance' are bishop res, TL, and meso explosion.

And if you still are hellbent about sticking to traditional definitions, thieves are way more tanky and fulfill the role of death sponge better than any other class - all the while putting out top tier damage.

 

Other classes can survive easier in larger comp, bird-first runs. They just need to not make any mistakes, which oftentimes doesn't play out well with ragtag 30-man groups with lots of turnover. This type of thief utility only really exists on optimized, bird-last runs where sed is a larger part of the fight, but same can be said about top end NL (or any other class's) DPM. Even if the fight got easier, NLs would only have more room to express their insanely high DPM efficiency, thus widening the DPM gap and justifying nerfs even further. This is why balance around NLs is tricky, and exploring further into the concept of NL utility over DPM could be something fresh.

For example, imagine if sed targetting swapped off of your character upon death. This would naturally shift sed rotations to stay on the tanks who can survive sed for longer, acting as a natural shield for others. This is a natural DPM efficiency balance, where thieves showcase their utility through survivability while their damage efficiency gets lowered by being sed priority for longer. By keeping your expedition mates alive for longer, you allow them to become the damage dealers. By playing well, you are preserving not just your own resources (apple duration) but the resources of others. Everyone benefits.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I think current SED design can be reworked to something like what I mentioned above. But I don't understand why you would want this pseudo utility role to be made null and void. Giving NLs purpose beyond DPM is a good thing, and it's an area of balance that should be explored.

At the end of the day, DPM is just a means to an end. As long as you're contributing to the run's success, you're a valuable part of the squad. If NLs can make other classes shine a bit more by taking on the responsibility surviving and resource preservation, that'll help bring natural inclusivity and shift the conversation away from DPM and more towards cooperation-based run strategies/compositions.

And again, this serves as more justification to nerf NL DPM closer to that of the average because if NLs bring this utility of survivability and insurance along with high DPM (akin to the original post about bucc DPM and utility), then the meta will remain the same as it's current - that of stockpiling your comp with as many NLs as you can to lower risk of failure and making the run faster with higher dpm.

 

This thread isn’t even about NLs

 

So if I told you that my bucc does 9m dpm during statues, you would rather bring a mule instead?

 

Wat

 

Going back to this statement, why would it be better to nerf utility over damage when a majority of Bucc utility comes from being actively played? The problem here is that they are capable of outputting top end damage along with all the utility that they bring. Even if you nerf their dpm by 10%, they'd be doing more damage than a good chunk of other classes.

So I don't understand your logic. Why cut into their utility in order to preserve their DPM? That seems backwards to me.