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Nerf Demolition IED, Reduce Super Transform uptime, or list it as a MapleLegends feature

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Oct 15, 2023.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Per this thread:
    While I understand that this might not be a 'bug' by its definition, it seems a bit weird that such a feature exists on no primary attack (in the list above) besides Buccaneers. This IED feature was later introduced as a buff to Shadowers with their Assassinate skill, requiring a long charge up time.

    upload_2023-10-15_11-52-21.png

    Looking at the list of Buccaneer changes, I'm wondering if it's time to look back and see if all of these tweaks have left a class overtuned.

    Here are a couple of thoughts:
    • Bucc Demolition IED should be changed to be in line with other classes, or
    • Super Transform uptime should be nerfed and Buccs rebalanced elsewhere (credit to GurkGurk ), or
    • if none of the above, Bucc Demolition IED should be listed as a Bucc specific feature that staff intends to keep instead of hiding it behind legacy code. A statement should suffice, and possibly added to this list.

    Bring some popcorn and discuss.
     
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  2. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I came for the Bring Back the Pet thread but I'm staying for the spicy replies
     
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  3. Pasta
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    Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

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    A note, without entering in the class discussion yet - the list in that skills thread is about MapleLegends-specific tweaks from original v62. Demolition defense-ignoring mechanic is a vanilla Maple feature, so it wouldn't make sense to include it in the list. Removing it, on the other hand, would be added.
     
  4. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Was boss defense not working properly a Maplestory v0.62 feature, or is the bug fix a MapleLegends feature?

    The point is that the defense bug fix shifted class balance all around - whether it was intended or not. Super Transform having a higher uptime (Legends feature) has a direct impact for the effectiveness of Demolition IED, which I don't think was intended by the staff back in 2019 because the defense bug fix made things such as the innate IED somewhat negligible.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    I've brought the popcorn but where's the show?

    do something.png
     
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  6. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    long overdue review. but it requires alot of digging into history and why were those implemented in the first place.
    Could include Marksman Snipe review as well
     
  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    hello i am a bucc main and i oppose this change because it would hurt my ability to abuse an omega broken overtuned class. please consider implementing the suggestions on the other thread here instead thank u
     
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  8. Pasta
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    Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

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    Regardless of how much it gets indirectly affected by other changes, Demolition (and other skills) IED is still an original v62 feature. A more appropriate approach then, in my opinion, would be to include IED in the skill tooltip.

    To be precise about the monster weapon defense, the bug was that defense was capped at 1999, which we now changed to 9999. I say "bug", but it was likely a feature back then, although I don't know whether some of the original v62 monsters were wrongly set to over 2000 def.

    Anyways, to get more into the rebalancing suggestions:
    Mmm, what does "in line with other classes" mean? Every IED skill (aside from our custom Assassinate addition) fully ignores a monster's base weapon defense. Are you suggesting to shift the IED-affected skill to one that's less spammable? In that case, I don't think there are too many candidates. Maybe Dragon Strike?

    This is an interesting route. What should be rebalanced, in that case? I assume it would be either Barrage, or some of the skills that best chain with it, although those would affect lower jobs as well. Unless, again, the target is Dragon Strike, although that would also grant extra mobbing power.
    That would be from just a "more damage" perspective, but maybe there's other routes.


    Also, I would like to focus on the changes list for a moment. Aside from the avoidability formula, what are some changes that seem to have left the class overtuned?
    Some of them are QoL changes imported from later versions (v62 Buccaneer was barely playable, while some changes from a few versions after have improved that), namely, if I recall correctly, the post-casting delay (for context, this delay is what locks your character in place after the skill animation is complete), the ability to use regular skills while Transformed, and maybe the buffs range increase, though I can't confirm this one.
    The easiest changes to tune from the list, without affecting quality improvements, in my opinion, would be the Energy Charge duration increase, its extra charging speed against bosses, the passive mastery to Super Transform, and the damage buffs to Barrage and Demolition.
    What I have left out are the Oak Barrel changes (I don't think they would mean much, from a balancing perspective), the stance on Energy Charge, and the delay between casts of Energy Charge and Snatch, mainly because, in my opinion, if Energy Charge is problematic it would be easier to tweak its uptime, rather than its effectiveness.

    Finally, in which way are Buccaneers considered overtuned? Is it mostly due to their damage, or their utility?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Why are we nerfing an already scarce class? Because i frames? Buccs suck ass at AOE and are good arguably in some 1v1 bossing situations, but require a shit ton of leveling to get their core skills leveled up enough to do that dpm. When everyone quits bucc we'd have more si mules to use though so there's that I guess
     
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  10. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Going by this logic of population we need to massively buff corsairs and nerf bishops.
     
  11. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I think this is a good approach. If Demo IED is here to stay, then this should be listed out as a feature.

    I think the culprit here is extended ST uptime as it amplifies time allowed to spam Demo and thus time in an extremely high DPM efficient state. Being able to spam Demo less would bring it more in line with the custom Assassinate IED feature (limited by situational uses). There's never really a time where ST is situational for DPM output, is there? Actually, in PB, being in ST during statue phase 4 & 5 was a bit dangerous unless you had Heroes Will since your (male) hitbox was tall enough to touch statues during seduce walk (though you could counterplay by right clicking ST, or running bird-first which coincidentally hinges on bucc utility anyways). However, this was changed in the last patch as a QoL/consistency change, but it was also inadvertently a Bucc survivability buff.

    I actually don't think there needs to be a counterbalance, but I'd be curious to see what kind of impact a shorter ST uptime has on Bucc effective DPM/DPM rankings in different fights.

    Don't get me wrong - I think all of the QoL changes are great, and making a class feel better to play is of course a positive change. The gripe comes more from a scarcity mindset where there seems to be fewer changes being made overall -- with a seemingly uneven distribution of attention being given towards the Bucc class.

    On that note, I think the Bucc class is well designed in that previous job skills don't simply get made irrelevant for the better/stronger/same utility skills in the next, so in a world of CustomLegends, it'd be nice if other classes could be made more similar to Buccs in that design concept. It'd be nice to have more use cases of all your skills, not just your 4th job ones. Savage Blow buffs when?

    It's a bit of both. Buccs don't seem to really have a weakness outside of a weaker early-game development, but considering the exp curve and alternative methods of blowing past the early game, I don't think that stands as much of a weakness in the holistic side of things.
    Not a comprehensive list, but Buccs can:

    • Wash to 30k hp easier than most other meta-relevant 'attacker' classes
    • Spend less on pots than every other class besides thieves
    • Perform Bucc-only duties making them a requirement in some forms of content (aggro/pin, TL)
    • Fit into any party composition while providing party utility to some (SI)
    And the cherry on top:
    • Do top tier damage in end-game content
    I think the utility side of things is fine, but it shouldn't come coupled with such strong DPM. That being said, I don't know if a flat DPM reduction is what's needed, which is why I thought removing IED from Demo to be a regular skill would be the less offensive/more reasonable ask. Or, if staff decided that the current state of buccs was fine and no change need be made, then to solidify that stance by listing it as a feature.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2023
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  12. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Including the feature in the skill tooltip is a good idea! Similar to how lucky seven description explicitly states damage is based purely on luk.

    Imo the changes regarding skill delays are all good and should be kept. It alleviates the problem of buccs being super janky in vanilla.

    Things that should be relooked are some of the unnecessary custom changes that accumulated over the years:
    • Avoid formula. I really dont think this is needed since active buccs are viable now.
    • Additional stance from energy charge. Is this really necessary?
    • Transformation cooldown as mentioned. Buccs are melee class, why are they spending so much time as ranged.
    • Additional mastery. Why?
    Just some of my thoughts.
     
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  13. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    becos they have damage and utility.
     
  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Energy charge duration is hard to measure in terms of how much extra dpm it gives, and there are also situations where it doesn't matter that much (where you are not knocked around or the knock doesn't cause you to fall). I'll put this as a negligible nerf if reverted.

    The passive mastery added from ST was also big for improving the dpm. Going from 60% mastery to 65% is about a 2.84% boost to the dpm in all states. This would be a massive nerf if reverted (2.84% might seem like a small amount of damage, but the amount of mesos it takes to improve your damage by 2.84% at end game is absolutely massive).

    Oak barrel changes are actually quite massive for bucc dpm out of ST. Barrel cancel tech significantly boosts the bucc dpm outside of ST by about 10 to 15%
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/quick-analysis-of-barrel-cancel-tech.41443/
    This would be an massive nerf if reverted.

    The damage buffs to barrage and demolition would similarly be massive nerfs if reverted (same with their attack speed).

    Energy charge stance % being reverted I would count as a moderate nerf to buccaneer. There is a big difference between 90% and 50%.

    Snatch damage doesn't seem to have a big impact on the meta, as its usually just used for crowd control and cleaving scenario. If this was reverted i would say its a negligible nerf.

    After the recent nightlord alchemist nerf, I would say buccaneer is currently the best class in the game by a fair margin.
     
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  15. soulreload
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    soulreload Horny Mushroom

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    I just think buccs 4th job skills are way too good utility wise for end game content. People just get mad because in addition to that, buccs got a damage balance in MapleLegends. In fact, DPM wise, buccs still loses to many other classes, depending on the content.

    If you are going to ask for damage nerf, you better provide some data for the balance team, comparing it with other classes with the same gear in the same content.

    Also, because of leeching, most people never gets to experience the struggle that is to level an early/mid game brawler with INT.

    If you want to nerf buccs dmg, just dont let SI stack with weapon boost, there is no need to mess with other skills.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2023
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  16. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    upload_2023-10-16_14-27-42.png

    It's unfortunate that Skarm got banned before he went to get a good HT DPM on his bucc. I'm betting he would have smashed 10mil with much less effort than it took for his BM. In terms of gear for these screenshots, the bucc and BM are essentially the same with perfect TL, there's only the 10 level difference giving the BM an advantage. The NL is the least geared of the 3 with only a perfect DPS.

    Buccaneer is the second best scaling class in the game, and once you reach the end game there's ridiculous value for a class with absolutely no weaknesses.
     
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  17. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    There's proof of buccs matching top ranks of DPM in PB floating around in some communities already, many of which Staff are a part of. There's also proof here on forums of top level buccs performing within the top 4 or 5 (Sair, NL, BM, Bucc, MM) in HT.

    If equal funding end game Bucc is losing out to classes besides sair or NL (and rarely, BM), it's most likely because of player skill differences. Note - this applies to end level buccs that have maxed all their skills.
     
  18. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Meanwhile I can white a 185 bucc in rav or krex as a 171 BM. If I stack 5 shads in my party with me as a BM I could probably tap into some of the dpm records with apples/gelts, does that mean thats how the party would normally be formed?

    They aren't broken just because Skarm utilized every single mechanic in the game to sweat out every drop of dpm. He was a mental player but he also introduced unrealistic "comparisons" for classes. Just because a class can deal this damage, doesn't mean thats how it should or would operate in normal content situations. NL still dominate 90% of content with virtually 0 effort, their only trade off being meso investment which scales in their favour nearing endgame when compared to other classes, and maxes their core DPM skills significantly sooner than most classes. My BM just finally maxed my "base 4th job skills" at 170, buccs to my knowledge are still working on skills into the 180's+ (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't play bucc)

    I wonder how many people advocating for bucc nerfs are salty NL mains/alts who are still upset about alchemist?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2023
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  19. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Corsairs do need some love to make them viable without being 30k HP (boat) and active bishops are almost non-existent in most content. Why would I pay splits to a character I can mule?

    You also said that because a NL lost 5 minutes of free apple the class was ruined so I can't really take you seriously anyways.
     
  20. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Should play an NL for a bit and try to reach competitive DPM efficiencies (DPM over Dummy DPM). You'll quickly realize you're mostly wrong with this take, especially in content like HT. It's just an old narrative that people like to spin because they play with other bad/lazy NLs (of which there are many considering how popular the class is), but these are the type of NLs that end up getting whited by people 20 levels below them. (Edit: Would also like to note that I'm guilty of having thought this in the past, but after playing an NL, my thoughts have been changed. There are a lot of micro-optimizations to discover to push your DPM further and further.) It takes a considerable amount of focus and attention to reach optimal levels of play for any class. NLs are good - not arguing that point, but their main appeal is that they carry less risk which is a huge advantage for high risk content where you're collectively dumping something like 360m worth of apples per run.

    Could also just be a perspective thing. I don't think you've really explored much content outside of the afk/freefire types, so your skewed perspective makes sense in that context.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2023
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