Fix ignored skills so they can be useful.

Thuglifer · Nov 2, 2023

brunandes said: ↑

A lot of skills have no purpose if you look at it from a 4th job perspective. There will be too many skills to revamp if you look at it that way.
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This is very true and readers should take point on this especially pre-4th job. Where most skills were eradicated due to how unbalanced 4th brought to the table or rather, lazy skill design. And this was proven over time, just look at subsequent job advancement (5th job pepestare). Giving you a rough idea of some of the useless mentioned skills, Shadow web works wonders during 3rd job grind and bosses like zakum with 2/3 of the summons (excluding blue) as well as neo tokyo content currently combo-ed with ninja storm. Now what we can do here to promote web usage is to allow for Horned Tail summons (red blue dark wyverns) to be webbed as well. Remember that web has a DOT (damage over time) like effect which is pretty neat in JC/Core.

Shadow meso used to be great in 3rd job runs with > 1.5hrs length due to Use inventory slot cap of 42 but now is probably just utilized for just players who forgot to recharge in some small scaled boss runs.

Doom was super handy in scaling your priests EPH up in your skele grinds, instead of dealing low heals damage, doom allows for SR spam which nearly increases the eph by 25%. Also comes in handy at sharks.

LeonardoJF · Nov 2, 2023

iPippy said: ↑

Any pot savings at thanatos/gatekeeper is drowned out by the cost of the rock used to generate that effect.

Anyways, I just want to point out that having more relevant skills is a double-edged sword, and could be viewed as a nerf in its extremes. If every skill is useful, then players are forced to pick which options to sacrifice. We already see this happen in some classes, where players have to pick between utilities with no viable ways to change them around. If final attack were suddenly useful for fighters for example, it'd have to come at the cost of rage, power guard, booster, or mastery. Jobs are not designed to max everything, but they sure are balanced among having everything.
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feelings of warrior 1 hand, I agree

PreistestSky · Nov 2, 2023

iPippy said: ↑

Any pot savings at thanatos/gatekeeper is drowned out by the cost of the rock used to generate that effect.

Anyways, I just want to point out that having more relevant skills is a double-edged sword, and could be viewed as a nerf in its extremes. If every skill is useful, then players are forced to pick which options to sacrifice. We already see this happen in some classes, where players have to pick between utilities with no viable ways to change them around. If final attack were suddenly useful for fighters for example, it'd have to come at the cost of rage, power guard, booster, or mastery. Jobs are not designed to max everything, but they sure are balanced among having everything.
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personally i feel that is where the fun in this would be. cuz as of right now unlike those classes that do get to make choices on their build, for example bishop is just a cookie cutter class, every build is practically the same because not all the skills are useful. i would like to be able to make the choice to learn this skill setup over that skill setup so that i can feel like i had some control over my playstyle. for example Doom Vs Summon Dragon according to my suggestion, then i have to make a choice, do i want to go bossing using doom to raise the dps of me and my team's paladin, or do i want to use dragon and Bahamut to boost my low level leeching as they attack on their own and can hit the stragglers that i missed with gene, or alternate option reduce points in another skill such as mystic door to 1 and raise both skills as high as i can.

or with powerguard Vs Final attack, they both have a max level of 30 so it can be a choice between either one. power guard passively increases your dps by turning some of the damage you would have taken into damage you deal (damage reduction not applicable to magic damage as far as my research tells me), thus you deal more damage and are a little tankier for it. but what if you are fine sacrificing the extra health it would have saved, then you can instead invest SP in a reworked final attack and get a bigger raise of dps at the cost of having to use alot more pots due to not have PG.

my ideas might not be the best solution, but they are just there to be a talking point. if you dont like my suggested ways to improve an ignored skill please give an alternate way to improve them. after all i am not a game dev i have no idea how to balance a game. just ideas that need to be hashed out.

brunandes · Nov 2, 2023

PreistestSky said: ↑

personally i feel that is where the fun in this would be. cuz as of right now unlike those classes that do get to make choices on their build, for example bishop is just a cookie cutter class, every build is practically the same because not all the skills are useful. i would like to be able to make the choice to learn this skill setup over that skill setup so that i can feel like i had some control over my playstyle. for example Doom Vs Summon Dragon according to my suggestion, then i have to make a choice, do i want to go bossing using doom to raise the dps of me and my team's paladin, or do i want to use dragon and Bahamut to boost my low level leeching as they attack on their own and can hit the stragglers that i missed with gene, or alternate option reduce points in another skill such as mystic door to 1 and raise both skills as high as i can.

or with powerguard Vs Final attack, they both have a max level of 30 so it can be a choice between either one. power guard passively increases your dps by turning some of the damage you would have taken into damage you deal (damage reduction not applicable to magic damage as far as my research tells me), thus you deal more damage and are a little tankier for it. but what if you are fine sacrificing the extra health it would have saved, then you can instead invest SP in a reworked final attack and get a bigger raise of dps at the cost of having to use alot more pots due to not have PG.

my ideas might not be the best solution, but they are just there to be a talking point. if you dont like my suggested ways to improve an ignored skill please give an alternate way to improve them. after all i am not a game dev i have no idea how to balance a game. just ideas that need to be hashed out.
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Just fyi, do not use bahamut when u are grinding. It is a custom change on this server that mobs killed by summons have extremely nerfed drop rates.

PreistestSky · Nov 2, 2023

brunandes said: ↑

Just fyi, do not use bahamut when u are grinding. It is a custom change on this server that mobs killed by summons have extremely nerfed drop rates.
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that i didnt know, but as long as it doesnt effect exp then i am fine with that trade off as i dont have to stop and SR the stragglers or drop another gene on them.

Thuglifer · Nov 2, 2023

PreistestSky said: ↑

use dragon and Bahamut to boost my low level leeching as they attack on their own
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if memory serves me right, you can only use either baby dragon or bahamut, not both together simultaneously if this is the intension as stated above. Additionally, note that baby dragon costs 1 summoning rock with lower base dmg over bahamut 0 rock cost and superior 3 target higher base dmg.

One of the many change if i could, is to require bahamut to cost 2-3 summoning rock instead. However, if this is done, mages archer guns summons should also req some summoning rock costs.

PreistestSky · Nov 2, 2023

Thuglifer said: ↑

if memory serves me right, you can only use either baby dragon or bahamut, not both together simultaneously if this is the intension as stated above. Additionally, note that baby dragon costs 1 summoning rock with lower base dmg over bahamut 0 rock cost and superior 3 target higher base dmg.

One of the many change if i could, is to require Bahamut to cost 2-3 summoning rock instead. However, if this is done, mages archer guns summons should also req some summoning rock costs.
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you are correct, but i am making the assumption that my idea in the original post is applied. but you do make a good point that Bahamut might need to summoning stone cost if they were made stackable. could also just make summon dragon MP only and Bahamut cost 1 stone since Bahamut is the better version and should cost more than its lesser.

Thuglifer · Nov 2, 2023

Yea It'd be interesting to see 2 summons all at once tho the dmg bonus for baby dragon might need some base increment to be worth the consumption/recast. Yup either way either removing 3rd's rock cost or retaining 1 cost and bumping up 4th's summons might work but affect other 4th summons in retrospect if following the skill design of requiring 4th summons to consume rocks which imo only adds onto some meso sink

PreistestSky · Nov 2, 2023

welp got bored waiting for servers to come online and decided to play "game balancer" and fiddle around with doom numbers if it is changed as I said.

Original Doom Skill
Level Description
1 MP - 88, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 5 sec., with 52% success rate
2 MP - 86, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 6 sec., with 54% success rate
3 MP - 84, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 6 sec., with 56% success rate
4 MP - 82, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 7 sec., with 58% success rate
5 MP - 80, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 7 sec., with 60% success rate
6 MP - 78, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 8 sec., with 62% success rate
7 MP - 76, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 8 sec., with 64% success rate
8 MP - 74, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 9 sec., with 66% success rate
9 MP - 72, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 9 sec., with 68% success rate
10 MP - 70, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 10 sec., with 70% success rate
11 MP - 68, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 10 sec., with 71% success rate
12 MP - 66, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 11 sec., with 72% success rate
13 MP - 64, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 11 sec., with 73% success rate
14 MP - 62, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 12 sec., with 74% success rate
15 MP - 60, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 12 sec., with 75% success rate
16 MP - 58, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 13 sec., with 76% success rate
17 MP - 56, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 13 sec., with 77% success rate
18 MP - 54, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 14 sec., with 78% success rate
19 MP - 52, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 14 sec., with 79% success rate
20 MP - 50, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 15 sec., with 80% success rate
21 MP - 48, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 15 sec., with 81% success rate
22 MP - 46, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 16 sec., with 82% success rate
23 MP - 44, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 16 sec., with 83% success rate
24 MP - 42, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 17 sec., with 84% success rate
25 MP - 40, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 17 sec., with 85% success rate
26 MP - 38, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 18 sec., with 86% success rate
27 MP - 36, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 18 sec., with 87% success rate
28 MP - 34, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 19 sec., with 88% success rate
29 MP - 32, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 19 sec., with 89% success rate
30 MP - 30, use 1 Magic Rock; Changes for 20 sec., with 90% success rate

My version of Doom
Level Description (Cooldown of 15 seconds)
1 MP - 88, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 6 sec., with 42% success rate
2 MP - 86, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 6 sec., with 44% success rate
3 MP - 84, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 6 sec., with 46% success rate
4 MP - 82, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 7 sec., with 48% success rate
5 MP - 80, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 7 sec., with 50% success rate
6 MP - 78, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 7 sec., with 52% success rate
7 MP - 76, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 8 sec., with 54% success rate
8 MP - 74, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 8 sec., with 56% success rate
9 MP - 72, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 8 sec., with 58% success rate
10 MP - 70, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 9 sec., with 60% success rate
11 MP - 68, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 9 sec., with 61% success rate
12 MP - 66, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 9 sec., with 62% success rate
13 MP - 64, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 10 sec., with 63% success rate
14 MP - 62, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 10 sec., with 64% success rate
15 MP - 60, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 10 sec., with 65% success rate
16 MP - 58, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 11 sec., with 66% success rate
17 MP - 56, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 11 sec., with 67% success rate
18 MP - 54, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 11 sec., with 68% success rate
19 MP - 52, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 12 sec., with 69% success rate
20 MP - 50, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 12 sec., with 70% success rate
21 MP - 48, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 12 sec., with 71% success rate
22 MP - 46, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 13 sec., with 72% success rate
23 MP - 44, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 13 sec., with 73% success rate
24 MP - 42, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 13 sec., with 74% success rate
25 MP - 40, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 14 sec., with 75% success rate
26 MP - 38, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 14 sec., with 76% success rate
27 MP - 36, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 14 sec., with 77% success rate
28 MP - 34, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 15 sec., with 78% success rate
29 MP - 32, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 15 sec., with 79% success rate
30 MP - 30, use 1 Magic Rock; Gives "Holy" Weakness for 15 sec., with 80% success rate

as you can see i dropped duration at max level by 5 seconds, and lowered success rate by 10 across the board. with a 15 second dps boost to both bishops and paladins that might not proc every time due to success rate and if you fail then you couldn't spam the skill trying to get it to proc due to cooldown, it could possibly be powerful, however it comes at the cost of bishops will need to carry a lot of magic stones into the boss fight. basically, trading money for dps.

however, if it remains where it doesn't affect bosses then I think we can simply return back to 20 seconds max level with no cooldown, with a 90% chance possibly even raise original to 100% at max level.

personally, i think this fits the name "Doom" better as Priests are those who cleanse the unholy and historically people of the church could simply say someone was evil (witch hunts) and have them delt with without needing evidence provided. with doom making something weak to holy it would fit both the ideal and the historic reality of the job better imo.

HarryPlays · Nov 2, 2023

Paladins and Bishops would be inseparable if they were to make that change haha.

duski · Nov 2, 2023

iPippy said: ↑

Any pot savings at thanatos/gatekeeper is drowned out by the cost of the rock used to generate that effect.

Anyways, I just want to point out that having more relevant skills is a double-edged sword, and could be viewed as a nerf in its extremes. If every skill is useful, then players are forced to pick which options to sacrifice. We already see this happen in some classes, where players have to pick between utilities with no viable ways to change them around. If final attack were suddenly useful for fighters for example, it'd have to come at the cost of rage, power guard, booster, or mastery. Jobs are not designed to max everything, but they sure are balanced among having everything.
Click to expand...

Unless you want to go hybrid you can max final attack without sacrificing any useful skill at 2nd job, (exception for fighters because rage in maplelegends got revamped and is maxed at 30 meaning you end having 10 points less to spare), In the original game all the warriors could max FA without sacrificing anything, if I recall correctly in GMS they revamped FA by removing the animation making it useful instead of a selfnerf.

Magzys · Nov 3, 2023

duski said: ↑

Unless you want to go hybrid you can max final attack without sacrificing any useful skill at 2nd job, (exception for fighters because rage in maplelegends got revamped and is maxed at 30 meaning you end having 10 points less to spare), In the original game all the warriors could max FA without sacrificing anything, if I recall correctly in GMS they revamped FA by removing the animation making it useful instead of a selfnerf.
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this is exactly the change I was thinking about for a change to FA to make it useful.

Thuglifer · Nov 3, 2023

duski said: ↑

f I recall correctly in GMS they revamped FA by removing the animation making it useful instead of a selfnerf.
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Yup grinding without that FA animation made life better, an alternative if this is not possible for our client ver would to have a major decrease in FA delay.

Hydrogen · Nov 11, 2023

While I agree with the idea behind this suggestion (give each skill its own "use"), the scope of this suggestion seems too large for execution. There are too many skills to consider. I think it'll be more helpful for staff if we can give skill specific suggestions.

I'll just comment on FA (warrior). I think removing FA animations is a waste of them. From the SP distribution of 2nd job warriors, I also think that when FA was originally designed, the designer intended for it to be skilled.

My idea for FA would be for it to add FA animations to the current pool of attack animations, and give FA a chance to attack via those FA animations with added damage. The assumption here is that the FA animations can be made to have the same delay as the current pool of attack animations.

E.g. A spear has two stabbing attack animations. Skilling FA will give the character a chance to attack using the FA stabbing attack animation (i.e. adding the FA stabbing attack animation to the stabbing attack animation pool). And when the character does so, the attack with the FA stabbing attack animation will have more damage.

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Fix ignored skills so they can be useful.

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Fix ignored skills so they can be useful.

Your take on my ideas.

Agree with all

Agree with most

Agree with some

Agree with none

Strongly Disagree

Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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