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Information Clarifying different things and concerns

Discussion in 'MapleLegends Announcements' started by Kimmy, Sep 4, 2020.

  1. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    12:41 PM
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    Hello everyone,

    As I mentioned a bit back on Discord I was going write a topic to clarify a few things, why the maintenance took as long it did, and re-clarify what the term 'GMS-like' means, which seems to be much different now compared to years ago for some.

    First of all, I want to thank everyone for yet another wild MapleLegends maintenance. Unfortunately, MapleLegends slowly got its signature of having the longest event maintenances ever in any server. Not the proudest thing, but it happens.

    Why does maintenance take as long as they do in MapleLegends

    When it comes to event maintenance in MapleLegends, people initially speculated that we do not have any kind of test server or Tespia, which means we code everything and then test it all on the main servers. While this used to be true years ago, MapleLegends do have test servers now, which has been used for early code or experiments.

    Now with you knowing now that we have test servers your next question likely would be: Would you not be able to just copy-paste the Tespia code to the main server then?

    I actually see this speculation often and the answer is actually no.

    When it comes to MapleLegends development, we are working on many things at the same time, as well as experiments, major projects, and so on. For example, shotshot was working on weddings, complete re-coding of mob movements, changes to the aggro system, and more.

    On top of that, PastaPasta was working on a lot of internal refactoring, as well as the event and client edits.

    While not directly involved with server code, yeehawyeehaw works hard on the client-side of things as well.

    This by itself is an insane amount of changes, which needed a lot and a lot of testing, which is why things did take as long as it did for those things alone.

    Why some maps broke after this update

    So another question I got after this maintenance often is why some maps like Shaolin 'changed'. Unfortunately, when we made mob movements more authentic, maps that were edited using 'Hacreator' which is a public MapleStory map editor, broke. This is because there's a bug in this program that causes the footholds to change incorrectly.

    While it's fortunate I used a different map editor for most of my map edits that do not have this bug, some were edited by hacreator, which has this bug and problem. I've now been looking into all maps I can think of that I probably edited with hacreator, in order to fix the issue, for a revision 2 patch.

    We thank you for your patience regarding this.

    What does GMS-like mean

    So this is one term that I don't like much anymore. Personally, I never use it anymore, because it's a really vague term. It was however used in NiseNise latest balance topic. I was completely fine with that. However, it seems people were confused by this term.

    The confusion: People thought GMS-like means we are trying to replicate a function or behaviour from CURRENT GMS.
    The meaning: GMS-like is a term used to make something function exactly how it did in GMS AT THE TIME (in our case v0.62).

    Why though?

    Since the beginning of MapleLegends, which is 2014, we've used a server emulator with a good share of problems. This would be crashes, things behaving differently (because they are coded wrong), or bugs.

    As MapleLegends progressed, we've coded and refactored a good chunk of code, and we usually had the goal to make it behave GMS-like.
    Kim note: I will now say authentic instead of GMS-like going forward

    You can go back to the 2015 update notices and you will see a lot of changes and behaviour changes that were done usually to make the game feel more authentic like the original game.

    So with the latest balance changes, they were more 'bug fixes' than they were balance changes. For example, SI working on mages was NOT a feature, but a bug because the server emulator inaccurately made SI act like 'booster' and booster is known to make skills faster too.

    We are also interested in fixing other bugs still, which will certainly affect the meta. I've made these warnings in the past, but I am not a fan of a few other bugs still left. This includes the infamous Shadow Stars bug. Since I made this warning in the past, I don't think it's a huge problem that I do it again. Do note however that while I want those fixed, there's sometimes a will and can, and sometimes it's cannot. This is also the reason why some things still are the way they are.

    So if this was known why did it took 5 years to be fixed

    This usually gets asked too. When it comes to MapleLegends or MapleStory as a whole, it's just a very huge game. Sometimes I was told by former or current staff 'I could leave and the game will keep going with no development need' but to this day I still disagree with that.

    Each time I think MapleLegends is more polished, there's just so much more left to make it even better. This was around 2015-2016. If MapleLegends was kept idle from thereon I can pretty much guarantee it wouldn't have been where it's standing now.

    Sometimes some refactoring is also extremely difficult because it requires a complete overhaul of the current code, which is connected to 500 other things, so the difficulty than just gets very high, especially to do it smoothly without problems.

    Another example would be Marriage. Right now 'we' have completely re-coded that. However, because pretty much everything has been changed internally, we had to migrate all the old data to the new formats.

    Another option is to un-marry everyone and tell them to do it all over again, but is anyone looking forward to that?

    Why are event rates always been changed during the event? Why can't they just do it RIGHT the first day?

    Back to another question we get criticism for often: Event rates.

    Honestly, if you think this one through, it's quite easy to understand why we can't get it right on the very first day. However, it comes to these things generally:

    - Each event we have a different population (which means less / more users)
    - We've always tried to not rehash events in MapleLegends, which means they are new. Testing new rates with less than 10 people is unrealistic. It may sound realistic to you, but it's really not.
    - The meta/economy has changed between the years and we try to balance around it

    After an event release, we heavily observe the event and quickly act if something is broken. For example, we've seen that heal was clearly broken, and after some debugging this was proven. We acted on it and fixed it.

    The economy is more important than some realize. Countless of servers that went by our face closed down because of a broken economy. Whenever it's due to something being too rare, or because a meta changing item became too common. We've seen everything.

    Our economy is not perfect, but I still would say we are proud of what we've reached with a 5 years old server. As one of the most populated server that's not easy, especially since we've gone through many population changes.

    Halloween Event

    We are currently extremely exhausted from events. When one event ends, the other start, and when that one ends, the next one starts. It really has become an endless cycle, and together with us always wanting to be rehash free, you can hopefully start noticing the obvious problem of us becoming more and more off-schedule.

    Especially after this event, we became extremely exhausted, and as players also suggested already we should take a break or have a rehashed event for once.

    We believe it's for the better we take this suggestion, so please do not expect anything great for Halloween. Hopefully, during this break, we can focus on actual permanent gameplay additions and other fixes we still have in our to-do list (which may I add is extremely long trrrust me there!)

    We really want the best for the server

    As MapleLegends goes in and out year by year, providing a way for users to still play Old School MapleStory that the original developers are no longer willing to, we hope you understand we are just people fan of the game, just like you.

    We do this in our free time, as a hobby. There's stress, frustration, and heated moments. However, we are still staying, because our love for the game is just that much.

    While there are bits and pieces of bad things, there's also a lot of good things. People being happy playing, making friends, and enjoying the server. A server we've built together as a team. Every bit of staff member has been important, and there's really no such thing as 'x is better than y'. It does not matter how big of a puzzle piece may be missing, because an incomplete puzzle remains incomplete, even if it's just by a little.

    Together we've been trying for the past 5 years making the best out of the server, and we are as human as you are right now reading this lengthy post of mine.

    If you've read all of it, I want to thank you for taking the time to read another series of my lovely long posts. Hopefully, at least something of it was informative

    See you next time.

    Remember you are all Legends!

    ~ MapleLegends Team ~
     
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  2. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    cool kimmy but can you let us know months before a big nerf happens. so you can save us time and not get flamed as well.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
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  3. OP
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    Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    Not a bad question. The reason why we don't announce changes beforehand is that as mentioned in the notice itself a lot of things are 'experimental' or get cancelled. If we were to announce every single change beforehand not only will people get a benefit by knowing the info vs people not reading the info, but people will panic way before the changes are actually done, which could be seen as unfair for many.

    As such, we announce the change so every single person knows it at the very same time, as well as multiple other reasons. You will notice that pretty much every big server, or even small ones, never announce changes like these ahead of time, because it's kind of silly thing to do.

    I mean, I did kinda mention that I want Shadow Stars fixed for example, but then there's also the bit where I mentioned just because I want it doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do...
     
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  4. Imberos
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    Imberos Horny Mushroom

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    I'm 100% on board with the GMS like experience, but the game needs to have content for HARDCORE end-game players. The original game had very little amount of things to do at endgame.
    MapleLegends these days has things to go for if you "wanna be the best" like level 10 ring and new bosses. Having SI for mages was one of those things, and I personally had spent 2 months to achieve that to "be the best".
    So yes, I'm fine with fixing SI and I'm fine with the other changes which has been taking place, but PLEASE don't neglect the HARDCORE players because we need more challenges to face and put time into (like lvl 10 ring, SI SE mules, endgame bosses and more)

    <3 ML is the best
     
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  5. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    The counter to this being people putting in time/work to create mules only to have them completely nuked in a later update. As a player I think it's pretty unfair that somebody can put in the time to get a character from 1-120+ only to have it be made useless which could've been avoided if staff were more vocal about upcoming changes. I don't think anybody is asking to know every change staff is going to make 6 months in advance but it is pretty unfair to players to have their work be wiped out.
     
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  6. Nedarb
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    Nedarb King Slime

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    What do you consider HARDCORE content? What are you doing in game right now? Are you at endgame?
     
  7. Caenyss
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    Caenyss Capt. Latanica

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    Yeeees I completely agree with this.

    I truly believe a good break from the tough event schedule will allow the game and staff to take a breath and catch up on a lot of things, even if they're small things.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Imberos
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    Imberos Horny Mushroom

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    What I consider to be HC is everything you can do after you have reached high level and geared up. Right now I'm trying to get to tier 10 on my main BM, I have finished leveling my mage to 1h petris and got my SI mule to 126. My next goal is leveling up on my BM and start fighting new bosses I didn't fight before.
     
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  9. Sheilem
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    Sheilem Red Snail

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    About the test server you explained, All you need is a DevOps guy, it will cut your maintenance time by 80% at least.
     
  10. WatIsDeze
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    WatIsDeze Horny Mushroom

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    100% this ^
    People have been reaping the mage SI benefits for years, as a new player who has spent a good chunk of NX and a lot of free time trying to get a Bucc to that level I have to honestly say that I've never been closer to quitting after having all of that taken away with 0 compensation.
    On top of that I also just feel a little unnerved that such sweeping changes (Such as both this and Pally nerf) are made overnight. If these kinds of changes can just kinda poof into existence, why would I put any effort into the game at all? I don't know what class to play or what goals to work towards because who's to say what's safe from this treatment in the future and what isn't?

    These kinds of changes, even the bug fixes, should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, not just all swept under the "It's a bug" rug together.
    Staff has already proven that the "It was a bug and not a feature" distinction is irrelevant anyway seeing as the Hshield fix was reverted before the game ever even went live using the fixed version.

    At the very least it would be nice to get just a couple weeks of heads-up when something as big as the Pally thing or SI fix is going into play, in case of SI that would still have been a good chunk of NX going to a better purpose.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  11. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    Saying this would be ironic for who knows me so im a bit afraid, but, I dont think being hardcore and focusing on them is necessary.
    If you turn your eyes around, there are so many stuffs to enjoy except just lvling, gearing, and bossing.
    I met so many ppls enjoying this game on their own ways. King of JQ, champion of omok, horny girl, beloved sqade ldr, troll master, pro, noob, permabeginner, islander, picture artist, comic drawer, hidden owner of FM, administrator and staff...... I always respect how they enjoy.

    They are all pieces of big puzzle named MapleLegends. This game has so many fun parts, not only just raising numbers......
     
  12. kakuzu
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    kakuzu Red Snail

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    Even if things are ‘experimental’ or don’t go through, you should still seek player feedback to help throughout the decision making process. It seems like there is a disconnect there. After a change is released, if the players hate it you went through all that work for nothing. For big changes (especially class changes) the community should be able to have a say, or at least provide feedback.

    It honestly feels like no matter how hard I try, nothing I say matters or gets heard. It feels like we are all just at your guys’ will. Since this game is so grindy and we all have so much time invested, it isn’t a reassuring feeling knowing that a new change could destroy so much of what you worked for. Out of nowhere a lot of the hours you put in are invalidated.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  13. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Honestly I don't think this should factor in much. It's pretty much the kind of risk inherent to any kind of game that 1) takes time and effort to progress in and 2) is being actively updated.
     
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  14. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    Hey, Kimmy, I feel panicking few months beforehand is worse than knowing the next day that the class is going to get hard nerfed.

    There is no need every single minor change to be announced beforehand, just maybe the huge class balance changes that affect classes such as si being removed by mages, hammers getting nerfed, and bucc avoid rework.

    It might be a silly thing for you and other server owners to reveal this info, but I feel this early transparency will help many players alike save their time creating a class/mule which takes a lot of time and money. Also, we can potentially chip in our thoughts on the nerfs instead on relying on a couple of balance team members that may or may not be biased.

    -Buccaneers mules who went the dex route now have tons of spare dex that have to be washed out in order to play the class, or they could have gone full hp Bucc instead of dex Bucc

    -Mages who invested tons of Mesos on godly int equips for their bishops/mage now have their dmg nuked badly in ht without si.
    they also could have instead made an arch-mage instead of a bishop, since Skele leech is heavily nerfed after the si bug fix.

    -Paladins who had the choice to go Hero might have regretted picking the pally class and feel their time is wasted.

    Having early info on these big balance changes would help people not feel like their efforts are wasted and feel like quitting. After all, it takes months to make a class
     
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  15. Shinohara
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    Shinohara Headless Horseman

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    The solution suggested in itself is not a bad one but it also presents the problem of finding one who can commit to the role since all staff members are volunteers who have their own commitments outside of ML ~
     
  16. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Thanks mom, been here for 5 years and I'll gladly stay around for another 5
     
  17. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Chronos

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    I pretty much knew from day one on MapleLegends that mage+SI was a bug that was intended to be fixed by the staff, which massively influenced my decision to not make an SI mule. Maybe I luckily came across this information, but it surprises me how many people considered this change to be completely out of the blue. I've never heard that remark about HS on seduce.

    Regarding GMS-like: I've seen people complaining not about making things to be like modern GMS, but rather "GMS back in the day had its flaws, not everything should be changed for nostalgia, like with holy shield". I think this is an argument worth respecting, which the staff clearly have done considering the holy shield unbug-fix/feature addition.

    And of course thank you to all the MapleLegends staff for their incredibly hard work!!
     
  18. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    I think the Halloween event the last two years were just fine. Rehashing once in a while to get back on track is TOTALLY understandable. You don't want to burn out.
     
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  19. Apink2
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    Apink2 Blue Snail

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    Sometimes it's difficult for the staff to see everything that is ever written or posted, the staff team is very small and like kimmy wrote, hey do this out of their free time. They have jobs, lives and things to take care of outside of maple legends. They are trying their best, they are not an official game development company and the staff don't get paid for doing work here, they are doing this out of their own desire to do so and cannot be out there to oversee everything that is said 24/7.

    You might argue well, they knew what they were getting themselves into, but guess what, so did you, it's a private server, when you play it, anything can happen. I've heard of players playing some private servers that have banned players because they didnt like them. The staff here doing a fantastic job with listening to players concerns considering how SMALL their team really is, and some of those staff members responsibilities are not even related to the duties of balance or addressing concerns. All I can really say is, think of the situation from the staff's perspective, there are 1000's of us as players and only like a dozen staff members, half of whom are probably not even responsible for anything related to the game's balance. Also some of you have way too high expectations out of staff considering it's a private server AND they are working for FREE.
     
  20. Stow
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    Stow Mixed Golem

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    I think it'll be good to have a consolidated thread of all known/existing gameplay bugs (such as shadow star bug, can't think of anything else at the moment, seems like a real short list) that are intended to be fixed in the future, in order to prevent people from ever claiming again that they never knew it was meant to be fixed and complain about investing 1000h into a character only for it to become "useless". It also would serve as a nice platform to observe the community feedback and reactions to such bug fixes so as to prevent situations such as the Holy Shield fix and reversion from happening again; this would also save the development team time attempting to fix bugs that end up being reverted.

    Unless I'm a pepega and this thread exists somewhere
     
    • Agree Agree x 3

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