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[Formal Proposal] Quester's Ring

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Skuire, Apr 30, 2020.

Do you support this proposal?

  1. Yes

    490 vote(s)
    82.6%
  2. Yes, but needs changes (specify in thread)

    84 vote(s)
    14.2%
  3. No

    19 vote(s)
    3.2%
  1. Slime
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    Slime Pixel Artist Retired Staff

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    Whoever posted that is obviously not being serious at all, and you shouldn't let yourself be offended by people posting pepe crusaders.
    I'm not sure whether that flew over your head or whether you're joking and I'm out of the loop.
     
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  2. nics
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    nics Mushmom

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    Im not too familiar with online culture, i did not understand pepe crusader is supposed to be a joke
     
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  3. nics
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    nics Mushmom

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    I would like to repost my last post because its buried in the previous page. Want to know what people think about this
    Repost-
    About the fear of not making right choices and locked out of content. Here's the idea:
    Maxing the quest ring gives player the choice to turn it into a stat ring or they can choose the ability to re-level up their character all the way from lvl1 to their current lvl for 1 time.
    They are sent to a map, dropped to lvl1 and click an npc to lvl up 1by1 while they can associate the ap and equip any int gear they have( met requirement to wear). They can choose to save the changes or not when leaving the room. Once saved theres no redo

    It is flawed but just a rough idea i had

    Edit: don't really have time & energy to discuss about this anymore. Donesnt even affect me that much, I play a class that don't need as much hp as some others. +1 quest ring but need changes. I rest my case, glhf.
     
  4. Slime
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    Slime Pixel Artist Retired Staff

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    Anything regarding releveling or redoing all quests and stuff like that is pretty much impossible to implement, development staff are human too. Also I'd say tone down the super far fetched ideas, any idea that is meant to fix a problem by adding a random huge new aspect to the game will just bring more problems and get little support.

    Edit: Sorry, idk why I said that in such a mean way.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  5. Alguém
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    Alguém Blue Snail

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    I'm probably late for the party... sorry,
    I liked the idea a lot and i kinda endorse it, although i see some big problems in the forseable future after its implementation or even problems forever after it's implementation.
    I also think it sould have less tiers with the quest starting at level 70, and a little weaker. (Oh, please, put her in "Ludibrium: Helios Tower <Library>", Questele would be a nice apprentice to Wiz the Librarian. She is so cute too. I can try to help with the pixel art if anything is needed :) ).

    Anyway, i'll try to express myself through some text in this Spoiler section, mind you that what i wrote is something more like a rambling than a coherent argumentation and that my english is too rusty and bad hehe if my misuse of this language comes to be so bad to the point of being offensive, i apologise before hand. Anyways here are the brainstorm i had mostly with myself.

    I've tried to read the thread up to here, maybe i misread something or missed someone's comment. Hope my english can make up for this discution, adding more than taking from it. But I, the only real problem to the implementation of the quest ring would be the flood of mid-game or mid-late-game characters questing low level quests in low level maps and the prices for some rare-pain-in-the-ass itens would skyrocket, wich could tilt even more the balance of the market to funded, old players in the server and slow the pace for newcomers. If this scenary would happends only in the beggining or would forever change the relations, i don't know. Maybe "class-struggle" are even a thing to consider here in MapleStory too. Also, 8 chs would suffice for this implementation?
    Now, about the "high levels that rush will be locked out of content" argument, i think is a bit much, because few are the quests that are level locked right? It is always "over lvl something", so you can still do it, it just that it will be really mindlessly boring. "Oh, but i've spend a lot to max my HP and other stuff, i'll feel stupid now", well you if you were capable of doing it, you are problably in a position that allows you to compensate yourself. Actually you probably already compensated yourself (boss rushes, market stalls, clans, etc.).
    BUT i think that those arguments presented in the last paragraph actually bring clarity to a even bigger ploblem within the game, and i can't trully express it well (I'm sorry). I think that the community choses how to enjoy a game. Far from being a individual experience, the relation of players decide certain limits to that interaction with the help of pre-existing designs in each game. Nothing new here, a Market presuposes commerce of itens, intead of donation, luck bases augumentation and drops processes pressuposes looting and farming. A shallow system of class builds with two valid stats per class, pressuposes what? To me a very narrow orthodoxy way to play to game, gearing to a plain and simple maximization of damage and mobbing (proof of that is post-big-bang auto-assignment button. It never mattered). And the thing is: few quest are a needed stepping stone for this, add to it the fact that Maple is a very old game, most of people are aware of the best optmization of it in any and every situation.
    I like the concept of Odd-classes (DEXWarriors, Knockback archers, etc.), Islanders and Perma Begginers, they are trying to expand, subvert and complexify the experience, presenting other ways to play this game. Thats why i like this idea of a Quest ring, because i can see this ring proposing something kin to that, in a way it would shift the attention towards a less optimal way of playing (it would alongate the needed hours in game) and quest, party quests (like Orbis PQ or LMPQ), lore, party interaction (non leech, older players helping younger ones - idk) and other contents would benefit from that - and that is why i like this idea. Although, lets be frank, this new ring could easily become mandatory to a optimal gameplay, generating all the problems with market, prices and acess to maps and itens stated above, so... from subvertion we would go to the a hegemonical square one.
    Lastly, most quest that reward equips are pretty abismal. Difficult, time consuming, and most of the equips are plain... i think it made sense in GMS, JMS, KMS, EMS, whatever, but in maplelegends by the time you get to those quest you are better equipped, due to this i think that a Quest Ring could be a fine objective, because this absolute crap of a reward would became just a fleeting moment of disappointment (hehehe) in a large and engaging quest line.
    It's a complex subject, and the community is giving the deserved and needed attention to it.
    Maybe making it inferior to Monsterbook Ring and dependable of very specific and fewer quests, could be an option? Make it a Seasonal Event? Maybe realeasing each tiers of this ring equaly spaced in a timespan of couple of years (min. 1 | max 3)? Making it a pendent? A cosmetic? I don't know. I'll keep my eyes here to see how this fruitfull conversation will end.

    PS: Wipping quests is a no-no. Please don't do it!

    - Had the help of my friend Marujao in some of the point brought here. Thanks man! -
     
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  6. Sepio61
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    Sepio61 Chronos

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    Event rings expire.
     
  7. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    If there's concerns that players who have 900+ quests completed won't feel accomplishment from getting the ring tiers, you can just create a rather hard questline for upgrading the ring (like turning in a new jewel for mb). There are already some notoriously hard etc gathering / kill quests, like 600 perfumes, 999 ToT, etc. I felt quite a lot of achievement finishing those alone. For example, you can have the last upgrade quest be: kill all area bosses or kill 99 crimson balrogs
     
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  8. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    I can already imagine the toxicity on orbis ships

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. RemiIia
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    RemiIia Slimy

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    no.
     
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  10. SYLegend
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    SYLegend Dark Stone Golem

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    i was just gonna tell you have the worst sig ever, but then i also realize your opinion was bad too
     
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  11. Alguém
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    Alguém Blue Snail

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    Every day I open my browser, and come to forum, I give a quick look here.
    My presentation would not be completed if a did not post something here (i already did, but it was very incoherently writen). The truth is that a made a Forum acc. because of this idea, i wanted to vote, read and partake in the discussion. Im trully infatuated not only by the idea of a quest ring but how the community embraced this to discuss seriously and extensivily. Not only because of a language barrier but for a lack of trully understanding of the mechanicals of this game (im a NOOB - trully! *nice to meet you*) the only "reaaaal way" i could add something is through a very newby pixel art. hehe

    So a made a fanart/homage-like piece of pixel art to the forum community and the creator of this thread/post SkuireSkuire.

    Thanks for the fuel and inspiration, ML community.

    P.S: I didnt feel like making a post on art just for this, but if this is considered spam or something i can post in the correct place.
     

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  12. Slime
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    Slime Pixel Artist Retired Staff

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    Too good man, this is fire.
     
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  13. Alguém
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    Alguém Blue Snail

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    MapleF15 thanks! But sir, its your art that is too good man! Look at your avatar. True fire! hehe
     
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  14. Alphard
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    Alphard Blue Snail

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    I'm personally all for such an addition, or something similar to it. I want to give my thoughts and help make this game as good as it can be, but I'm relatively also new around these parts, so do let me know if my assumptions are off. This strikes me as a very important thread and I want to make sure I understand things on a fundamental level, so forgive me if I take a long time to get to the point. The Quester's Ring seems to have multiple important objectives, but there's going to have to be some careful balancing done to make sure it successfully meets all of them. These objectives are outlined in OPs initial post and so I want to take a look at each of them, as well as some of the proposed worries (at least those I feel qualified to weigh in on).

    • The Quester's Ring seeks to make quests a more valuable sphere of the game.
    The stats given at the start of the thread indicate that less than 1% of players have completed what is roughly half the quests in the game. This indicates that questing is not as intrinsically rewarding as other activities. While some specific quests offer good rewards this simply leads to many players, especially those who have already experienced them (which will be a lot on a retro private server) cherry picking the most rewarding quests and ignoring the rest so they can focus on more rewarding spheres of play. In order to make Maple Legends a more multidimensional experience, the questing system could be improved. And indeed, the devs clearly noticed this as evidenced by the 3x quest exp multiplier. While I believe this does make the game better, it is not a perfect cure. The multiplier severely frontloads the rewards from quests on the early levels where quests are both more abundant and offer more experience relative to the amount needed to level. This solution does little to offer late game incentives to quest, and players only concerned about the late-game (which will be more and more as the server and its players age) will give the questing sphere of the game less attention and the game will start feeling more one-dimensional.
    THEREFORE: In order to fulfill its mission, the Quester's Ring needs to be a reward strong enough to tempt players in the later stages of the game.
    -Furthermore, as questing is designed to be done throughout the game it would be best if its rewards were also experienced as the game progresses.

    • The Quester's Ring seeks to add more diversity of experience
    So the core of this problem is that the Maple World is wide expanse of many people, places, and monsters, but is also something of a solved game. Certain areas just give better rewards for the effort based on stats, drops, positioning, etc. Since Maple Story doesn't really promote 'win conditions' besides becoming strong enough to defeat the most powerful monsters, players will choose the options that best prepare them to complete that objective. However Maple Story has always had subcultures that strive to set their own 'win conditions'. They manifest as Perma-beginners, Islanders, HP Warriors, Bow-whackers, and so on. Maple Legends even helps promote these ideologies by keeping and ranking stats for who the strongest islander is, who has the most fame, and even who's completed the most quests. I argue that nurturing and promoting these alternate playstyles makes the Maple World richer, more expressive, more diverse, and more enjoyable even for those who don't choose the more awkward roads.
    THEREFORE: In order to fulfill its mission, the Quester's Ring reward must be greater than the drawbacks of playing the game in a "sub-optimal" way.
    -Completing the Quester's Ring challenge ought to feel like a "Win condition"
    -Furthermore, the reward from the Quester's Ring should not be so powerful that it invalidates other styles of play.

    • The Quester's Ring seeks to mitigate the importance of HP washing.
    This is a subject I'm much less knowledgeable on, but I think I've picked up core of the problem. HP Washing is a system that makes your character strictly better than a character that has not washed. A character that has HP washed is greater than or equal to an identical character that has not washed in every field. Due to the extreme power level of end game bosses, HP washing is necessary for nearly every class to experience everything within the game. HP washing is tedious to do, requiring months of voting for the cash necessary to and cripples the character in the early to midgame, necessitating things like leeching and building utility characters before desired characters. HP washing is an intimidating prospect that scares off players from playing the game or making the characters they want. The necessity of of HP washing to experience certain pieces of content breeds FOMO and pushes many players towards this path.
    THEREFORE: In order to fulfill its mission, the Quester's Ring needs to provide a reward that imitates or rivals the benefits of washing.
    -Furthermore, so as to not invalidate those who went through the tedious and painful process of washing, the reward from the Quester's Ring should not overshadow the benefits of washing.

    • The Quester's Ring seeks to be a status symbol
    Players who seek to become as strong as possible have many ways to show off and compare each other. They can look at their damage, compare weapons and equipment, and so on. Players who choose alternate playstyles are less likely to receive this luxury. The burden of sharing their accomplishments is on them, and thus the game does not help incentivize these playstyles, but further push players towards making the big numbers appear. While there's nothing wrong with that, it is likely that many players would be able to find more enjoyment out of the game if the game pushed players in many possible directions and rewarded them based on what they got the most enjoyment from.
    -THEREFORE: In order to fulfill its mission, the Quester's Ring must provide a reward that is recognizable and appreciable by all.
    -Furthermore, its reward should be better suited towards players who enjoy the questing playstyle.
    -Furthermore its reward should be unique and different from the rewards gained from other types of tasks.



    So in its current incarnation, the Quester's Ring seems like it does a good job at fulfilling most of these requirements. A powerful ring could surely tempt late-game players into completing its challenge. The tiered system gives you rewards as you journey along. Like completing the monster book it is daunting task that will take you all across the Maple World, making it a great "win condition" candidate. By offering a lot of bulk it rivals the benefits of washing, and because it does so through defense its unique, an identifiable reward you'll only get through questing.

    Getting the numbers right seems really tricky though, sounds like it'd require someone with a lot of expertise in order to get it right. I feel like the reward needs to be strong enough to allow unwashed players to experience the content previously denied them, without being so strong that it becomes better than washing. To me it also makes sense that the questing reward helps people get all the experiences from the game, while washing would remain the go-to method for those who want to go all in on bossing and be the best possible at it. That said I know very little about how the numbers pan out. Is it even possible for the maxed out ring to make every boss survivable by any unwashed (but otherwise pretty optimized) character while not being best in slot? Is there enough intricacy in the combat system that we can get the numbers right for this thing?

    I'm also not 100% sold that higher combat potential is the most fitting reward for the questing challenge. I wonder if there's a different way type of reward that would be enticing for questers while not being a must have for everybody. Still, a powerful piece of equipment is probably the easiest and least intrusive/disruptive to implement. I'm just really into the idea of more win states and rewards for different styles of play in case it wasn't obvious by now.

    There is the concern about how such a change would fit into Legend's style of server. But I think that between the parallels to the book's reward structure, the fact that the reward is simply a piece of equipment, and the connection to one of the server's existent features (3x Quest Exp) make this something that would fit right in. Besides more drastic action is acceptable if it fixes the more major problems and from what I've seen plenty of people want more ways to enjoy the game and a lessened necessity to washing.

    The last big concern I see is how the economy would react to the implementation of this. I think the best way to mitigate anything crazy happening is just to announce the change well in advance of its release. That'd give people who just want the bump in power plenty of time to decide if they're gonna go for it and let them get the quests done at their own pace, let people making new characters make informed decisions about how to invest their time leveling and should spread out any spikes in the economy. Is there anything else we need to be considering? Anything from the mods perspective that we're overlooking?

    I suppose there was also the argument that this results in no new content from those who've already done all the quests, but I'd argue that if they've already done all the quests they've surely must've found a lot of joy in their own journey. But I'm probably being too dismissive. Maybe the Questkeeper NPC could give access to some sort of new special super-hard but rewarding and/or repeatable quests as part of the reward for fully completing the ring.


    I think it's important that there be things that slow down the pace of the game and provide alternate objectives and "win conditions". The Quester's Ring seems like a great way to weaponize a built in, underexplored system to do just that. I really do hope we can figure out some sort of way to make this thing work, or at least find another way to solve the problems the Quester's Ring is trying to fix.
     
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  15. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    I conclude something entirely different here. I think the developers of the game completely neglected higher level quests in the same abundance as they made lower level quests because of their own shortsighted design of them giving such terribly low experience rewards. In my mind, I see the solution two-fold. The first is to isolate which quests give such terrible rewards (typically just very low experience) and boost those. The second is to create new quests such that the abundance of quests at level 100-120 are equally abundant as when someone is level 40-60. There should also be significant quests throughout 4th job so that there is a third method of leveling [1. Grinding. 2. Boss PQs. 3. Questing]

    In this same vein, I think Bosses, like Zakum, HT, and PB, should have an actual PQ behind them instead of just bossing. Zakum and HT sort of have this, but they are independent and only necessary from time to time. Creative PQs, like CWKPQ, would be a better version.
     
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  16. sheepes
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    sheepes Mushmom

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    Not sure if this has been suggested, but how about make it a requirement that your Monster Book Ring must be a certain level before you can receive the Questers Ring (eg. lv5)? Since some quests require that monsters be killed, it kind of makes people have to double back to old locations that they may no longer visit.
     
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  17. that1kidcam
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    that1kidcam Red Snail

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    This. I think this would be a phenomenal gatekeeper to prevent low levels from getting too powerful a quest ring
     
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  18. Dance
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    Dance Stone Golem

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    Hey, I was wondering if this is in the works right now? This sounds amazing!
     
  19. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    According to Kimmy's end of 2020 post, there seems to be something possibly in the works.
     
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  20. Crisco
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    Crisco Red Snail

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    Excellent post and idea, Sku. I have to agree with this suggestion - a quester's ring provides so much more content for players that are simply not interested in end-game content. I would like to do all the quests available, and having some incentive other than my own interest would make this process much more worthwhile as the current quest rewards for higher levels (both exp and rewards) are not that enticing. I think tapping into this would bring more players to the server to access this kind of content, and keep the interest of players who have lost interest in the game since achieving tier 10.
     
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