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Mage Party Contribution (Meditation)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Doguu, May 24, 2021.

  1. Doguu
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    Doguu Pink Teddy

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    I've seen some people in the past mention a lot of party buffs are mostly useless and Meditation was no exception to the discussion. I'm inexperienced with with endgame tbh since I just got my first character to 4th job but it's extremely apparent to me that Mages have very little contribution other than mobbing potential which is also outshined by Priests/Bishops because they have many useful party contributions as well as nearly the same mobbing potential. The exceptions I can think of which range from extremely minor to completely useless are debuffs like Slow, Freeze, Seal and maybe poisoning tricky mobs, and the buff: Meditation.

    Meditation as far as I'm aware is only useful to 1st job Magician and the Bishop tree. Even while being useful it's usually not enough to compensate for the overall lower bossing DPS, the lack of a need for your mobbing ability since you'd have a healer if you were trying to pair for your party buff, and the biggest outlier, it is obsolete since Wizard Elixirs do the exact same thing.

    I'll list some possible revamp ideas, some previously mentioned in other threads. I'm mostly looking at a combination of these ideas since the skill is underwhelming for being the only party buff Mages uniquely contribute. I understand the skill needs to stay tame as a 2nd job ability on an already strong class for that level range so I propose a solution for that as well.

    Idea 1:

    Make Meditation able to level up to 30 for +30MA total. The catch to this I would make is make level 30 Meditation a skillbook that has a lvl70 requirement since Wizards are already fairly strong as is. This would also make sense because 3rd job Mages usually have unused SP to put into anything because of the nature of Spell Booster 11.

    Idea 2:

    Give Meditation a LUK stat boost. I'm not as sure what reasonable calculations for this would be, but I'd imagine something like 10 or 20 LUK at level 20 and if level 30 ends up being paired with this I'd stick to 15 LUK probably. This would be nice as an addition to benefit Thieves as wells as the Bishop tree. Just an idea that fits the Magician aesthetics but also expands the use of Meditation to Thieves since it's a dead party buff otherwise.

    Any more ideas are welcome, I had 1 more but it sounds terrible when I type it out so I'm typing a bit smaller of a post than I intended. Also I could've swore the skill was "Meditate" but the library says otherwise :eek:
     
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  2. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    It might have changed in later patches but when I played MSEA in 2006, it was called Meditation. A LUK buff would allow easier access to elemental staves. I don't know the numbers but it might be OP. The 15 LUK definitely seems OP on NLs since they have a higher multiplier than Shads.
     
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  3. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    10:08 PM
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    I think every change would either be broken and muled or of no consequence. A 15 LUK buff would be absolutely insane. That's nearly the additional benefit of MW30 for NLs and shads. Even the extra avoid there would be useful for pirates. It would probably be muled.

    Any matk type buff just makes mages even more powerful and use items like guava useless. I'm fine with 1st/2nd job party skills being pointless/replaced with use items, because they aren't supposed to be used for late game. It's really only useful for early game when money is tight.
     
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  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    It would be nice to have a more balanced set of utility between mages and bishops. Currently it just seems like a self-cast unless you're partying with a priest.

    What we haven't actually seen is a % damage reduction from a party skill, which could be neat if it were found to function. Go for a peaceful zen state where you take slightly less damage, say 10% at level 20. It may not seem like a lot but even 15% from achilles is crucial for DKs in most bosses, and it would reduce reliance on washing ever so slightly if you're willing to boss with a mage.
     
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  5. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Like a party buff invincible but for magic attacks? I like the idea...would definitely help the server be more washing optional...and make mages viable in PB.
     
  6. OP
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    Doguu
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    Doguu Pink Teddy

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    Numbers were more negotiable as I mentioned before I'm less familiar with the calculations, a couple examples of what I assume could be a more realistic application after your explanation could be:

    (For 30)
    Med 6 = 6MA 1LUK
    Med 12 = 12MA 2LUK
    18, 3
    24, 4
    Med 30 = 30MA 5LUK

    (For unchanged 20)
    Med 5 = 5MA 1LUK
    10, 2
    15, 3
    Med 20 = 20MA 4LUK

    If it's still too much, it could be increments of Med 10 per +1LUK...honestly the idea is to get Mages on the board for party buffs, not necessarily be a new broken fad.

    It's not a bad idea but I wouldn't consider this too relevant to Meditate or Mages in general, I've always just seen them as an offensive class.

    I was thinking of a couple ideas for implementing high %DR in a health gate fashion but that's for a different thread I'd say. HP washing is something I'd like to address but I doubt my solution would be more agreeable than some already out there...plus I don't think it's necessary, it's just a looming presence once you realize you could do things you normally weren't suppose to be able to if you had done it.
     
  7. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Let's not make mages even stronger :)
     
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  8. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    I always thought making Seal able to dispel bosses could be a really cool change.
    It's far from making Bishops useless, since you can't dispel party members debuffs (or I mean. Do anything else that makes bishops useful), but can still bring SOMETHING to the table and even improve your own class' survivability against attack buffs like CWK's warrior boss, Dunas or Horntail.
     
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  9. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    time for weapon cancel cancel
     
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  10. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    Ooooooo.. Interesting. Maybe seal can cause bosses to fail their spells (including seduce and cancels) at a 10% rate.. somewhat like blind?
     
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  11. OP
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    Doguu
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    Doguu Pink Teddy

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    Arch Mages seem like they're more left out of endgame bossing than unwashed ranged chars. Sure they can mob, but so can a Bishop who also has HS as well as their other helpful utilities. I think if their one offensive party utility was viable beyond a class that outshines them as well as a pot that negates the need for them, they could be seen as more enticing contributors to boss runs.

    That's not a bad idea. Anything that gives Arch Mages some utility beyond their basic attack spells would be nice. I just believe a good design philosophy for them would be every contribution is offensively oriented with the nature of the crossroads between Cleric and Wizards.

    I like this idea on paper but I don't think it'd contribute much in boss runs, it sounds like it would just save your party 10% of their pots if I'm interpreting this idea right.
     
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  12. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    Let's make mages not dogshit useless except for ult-farming so they actually have a reason to do anything else
     
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  13. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    On pre-heads + three main HT heads, it'd shave a couple of minutes if they fail to weapon cancel. Or when 1/1 fails during mass sed, saving the run.. the bosses failing their spells = fewer KBs = higher overall DPM for the party.

    :eek:
     
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  14. Vowels
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    utility is sort of a nerf, every second lost doing some utility animation means less time doing damage, if anything what makes mage 'great' compared to bishop is being able to be on offense all the time, in endgame bishops minmax utility in order to do more damage (hello sedmules, goodbye bless, asking ready for res? that's only for buyers, rather acp than dispel, heal is only for mass, etc), of course bishops embrace the utility but only the one that's absolutely essential so we can help more with the timer. What I'm getting at is that I play archmage aswell and I personally wouldn't like to have support abilities because that's what I have my bishop for, I'd prefer a improved dps experience with a quicker spell booster animation, with the ability to swap wands/staffs while catching breath and prob a tiny bit more of power and range on paralyze/CL
     
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  15. OP
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    Doguu
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    Doguu Pink Teddy

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    I like this idea too, I do use it from time to time but it is a fairly dead skill... Half the skills in this game are dead now that I think about it lol

    I like the keeping the game nostalgic and closer to vanilla, but I don't think many people feel nostalgic for skills unused...I kinda feel this when I make a DK and FA just means I get pole arm and spear mastery up. 3rd job mages can feel this too when they have 3 1/2 skills almost completely unused. Mobbing skill, check. Ele amp, check. Spell booster 11, check. Single target attack/utility check.

    Losing 200k DPM for using Seal 3 times could honestly be well worth it if it raises your entire party's DPM, do you just feel like you'd rather not? I'd consider enemy debuffs offensive although a utility.
     
  16. Vowels
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    What's the proposed trade off though, is this a free buff for a class that is already good? The only thing archmages can give up to get this kind of buff is ult damage and I wouldn't take that trade, I would trade ult damage for single target damage but not for utility that can be muled
     
  17. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    Bishop is the support class of the game and Archmages is the poorly balanced class in MapleStory that got balanced post big bang. So yeah Bishop support altho they got a bit too much dmg with Genesis but I could give you a piece of my mind on how I would crazily spice up the jobs to be better.

    Archmages are good at a job: map cleaning and farming; because of this they can't be good at any other department (kinda like NL is good at 1vs1 but shit at mobbing) that's why post big bang they kinda gave to most jobs a map cleaning skill with a long cooldown (from 45 secs to 60 secs) and giving these skills benefits while on cooldown (both meteor and blizzard post big bang have a 60% chance of raining an ice strike or a meteorite to a mob you are attacking for extra dps). That would be a funny balance in ML, ok make genesis, meteor, and blizzard get this cooldown and make the mages more like a warrior-like class, more balanced in bossing dmg and mobbing damage with some unique touches, like well bishop being the support class, fire poison the damage overtime class and i/l the slowing down class mixed damage and support. I don't think this should be the move since, well this is a nostalgic server.

    If I would buff meditation I would yolo it and make it 30 m.att and -20% mp usage for the team and yourself. Altho well I would like more the post big bang approach of better boss damage and screw the op map cleaning (I know F/P is good DPM on PB but only cos everyone else does literally half damage)
    .
     
  18. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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  19. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    I think blanket buff to matk is not needed, it just makes ults stronger. A party-buff concentrate for less mp usage is kind of interesting though (and not that useful, but matches first job utility).
     
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  20. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    I actually agree with you fully in concept VowelsVowels. It's just that these sort of changes (im assuming) are harder to implement to a point where eventho I'm always looking into it, I still dont think I can responsibly say "hey, these are the skill tweaks we need for AMs". However, I'd actually be very much down to try and document a list of possible tweaks or changes to the class together (with context, sources and class comparisons). Id love to get the opinions of others who care for the class, and I think it could help us to have a formal and collected suggestion made sometime down the line.

    As for the Seal proposition - this is really just a change I think is minor enough to casually bring up, but could still bring something to the table. However for sure if it means trading something off, i wouldnt want it either.
     

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