1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

November 2023 Balance Changes Feedback Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by beegoratto, Nov 30, 2023.

  1. beegoratto
    Online

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,453
    423
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:16 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    Okay, the Balance Changes thread itself, like all of the others, is kind of a train wreck so I’m going to start a hopefully clean new thread for discussing feedback on the changes as people start generating play testing data. Hopefully this can start dialogue with staff to pinpoint what is working and what is not.

    I’d like to preface this thread to all who respond:
    Please do not use this thread to argue or shitpost. The primary purpose of this thread is to provide information to staff to help adjust changes.

    This means you should be able to distinguish between your personal feelings in response to a gameplay element versus your personal feelings in response to someone else’s opinion.

    Good post: “this mechanic made me feel frustrated because I did not know how to overcome this obstacle”
    Helpful, provides direct emotional feedback to gameplay and precise information on why

    Bad post: “anyone who supports these changes is an idiot because they can’t read”
    Not helpful, does not provide any information to staff at all in rectifying gameplay

    With that out of the way, I’ll start.

    I think the CWKPQ bonus stage changes are poorly implemented. It’s incredibly jarring the first time you go in especially if you are used to running CWKPQ, particularly the lack of jump and the slower moving pets. I’ll break down my issues with it into the following points:

    1. The bonus stage feels like a jump quest now. It is now the most stressful part of the run with an emphasis on precision and perfection with little room for error. This is supposed to be the part where you get rewarded and get your hit of dopamine, but instead you feel anxious. It is also difficult to practice as there is no area where someone can learn other than running the content itself, which is already a long form activity that is usually not run daily. I imagine those like myself who are not talented at jump quests will have a long road ahead of them in learning how to do this well, and will lose a lot of potential money along the way just to learn a niche mechanic, which feels frustrating. You also need to learn multiple routes, further increasing the learning curve.
    2. It seems on paper this change was implemented to even the playing field between everyone, but instead it feels like one or two players are now potentially shafted depending on how they roll for the bonus stage sections. If you get a bad section, you’re cooked, whereas previously highly mobile classes like NLs could help out their party mates by volunteering to get far and harder sections.
    3. It hurts demographics that are historically underrepresented the most. CWK is well known as cleave content, a place where warriors can shine, and potentially become strong enough to solo cleave. By targeting not only CWK in general but smaller 3-man groups especially, it harms the demographic that is most in need of help. Ranged characters have other activities they can do such as HT without issue, but strong cleaves struggle to find other alternatives to CWK as a high return activity. This also hurts the supply of items valuable to the entire server such as Weapon 30s, CHCs, and Specs.
    4. You no longer have the ability to loot from your party mates, or at least a significantly reduced ability. If I were to theoretically run 4 man and one of my party mates wanted a chair or BFC, they now have to sacrifice multiple of their boxes to come over to me and loot it, assuming I even have enough time to tell them and they have enough time to make their way over.
    5. It assumes the looter has pet loot, binoculars, wing boots, and ideally multiple pets. Some people use CWK as a source of NX while still washing and don’t want to buy pet loot on their attacker, something that normally has little value on a bossing heavy character.

    Overall, I don’t think this change is going to accomplish what it set out to do effectively. I worry this will discourage people from running CWK entirely and hurt the availability of Weapon 30s and heavily reward merching practices which become particularly effective when supply drops. I personally found the new bonus stage to be pretty unfun and clunky, even despite the fact that I was able to get all of my boxes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    • Great Work Great Work x 11
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. fartsy
    Offline

    fartsy Zakum

    1,463
    1,019
    491
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    6:16 PM
    Fartsy
    F/P Mage
    Pasta
    remember to spell check ur title
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. UnknownCode
    Offline

    UnknownCode Nightshadow

    677
    229
    350
    Jun 6, 2021
    California
    4:16 PM
    Islander, Bishop, Bandit
    0
    Speenies
    Your points on CWKPQ seem to have its issues that I agree should be fixed however I think the rest of the balance changes are pretty well done and staff did a good job.

    Hopefully staff hot fix the problems that people are experiencing in CWKPQ.
     
  4. T2Smile
    Offline

    T2Smile Pink Teddy

    73
    12
    71
    Sep 24, 2023
    12:16 AM
    Nice start.

    1. I think the APQ rework is quite good, except from time to time I could see people stucked in apq sending megaphones. Let's put technical issue aside. Now APQ's preparation is eaziser, the drop rate raising for keys is quite sensable and could feel the difference obviously between the past and now. Needless to say remove gender restriction for portals at stage 1, to make APQ staying align with the no gender restriction on marriage. I haven't done my data collection, I guess there will be slightly more apples than before per run since the boxes are more. All positive changes. But I had a concern about maybe these changes lead to apple price goes down a bit. I guess that's not a big problem to worry about, new farmer at apq will not get influenced much but old farmers who stacked a lot of apples to sell might be hurt.
    2. The mages' balancing changes. At first I'm excited, but after seeing further calculation and test done by other players, it seems to be a change that mainly take impact on current bossing attacker mages, and mainly IL I suppose? I feel this change itself won't shake the current meta (big enough to lure more people into mages) or change most of mages current gameplay and future decisions, as in, though the dmg improves for end-game mages, still mages are not get higher priorities than other original optimal attacker classes. I'd say I like the trend the changes are proposing, I'm eager to see it goes further to make some real difference.
    3. And about the data visualization part. I recon last years' methods slightly better than this year's since there are even detailed statistic sheets (thx for fartsyfartsy mentioning them) https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...r-event-2022-balance-changes-explained.46741/ I personally prefer seeing data more transparent instead of throwing the final analysis result only. That's only my personal preference, objectively speaking, that'spretty nice work done and very useful infomation shown to us.
    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. LeonardoJF
    Online

    LeonardoJF Horntail

    2,363
    432
    490
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    8:16 PM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
    I liked Cody's quest where you can get the etc by doing core and other content like cwk, I tested the new cwk and I did relatively well in box (8/10)
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  6. Cornwall
    Offline

    Cornwall Master Chronos

    94
    38
    106
    Dec 11, 2020
    Male
    7:16 PM
    Cornsair
    Corsair
    Pasta
    I am sorry but it seems a little bit patronizing of you to declare that the other thread was a train wreck. Personally, I felt there was a healthy discussion going on in there. Let's go back there please.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. Tarnished
    Offline

    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

    217
    109
    210
    Jun 13, 2022
    Male
    4:16 PM
    Confessor, Tarnished, Hawthorn
    Hero
    200
    Thanks for making this post, I’m beating a dead horse at this point, but the significance of the CWK bonus stage nerf has flown under the radar so I’m just going to rant into the void again here as someone who’s run hundreds of mostly 3 man CWKs:

    I use my NL to loot 3 man boxes. It’s already hard to get all 10 boxes with SI + Haste + PSB + FJ, many even experienced looters miss including myself because it could just take 1 mistake. Without mobility, looting got 10x harder. It does not feel good when the primary income strategy on my character that I’ve spent thousands of hours building just became 10X harder without any explanation or acknowledgment from staff.

    When you are a late game player trying to make gear progression, the EV:hr of any content is the most important non-social metric for determining whether or not you run it. 2/3man CWK comes at a massive opportunity cost because you’ve allocated all your mules, levels, funding, and attention into this activity. You are choosing to run a PQ instead of just AFK-multi farming because CWK is a rare exception where you get to play the character you enjoy against a boss that might come close to the EV of farming, especially as a Hero/DK who cannot efficiently fight not just most bosses, but also can’t match the leech/farm/multiclient capabilities of Mage/Shad/Sair or even in some cases NL

    What I’m trying to say is that while missing a few drops from CWK bonus due to this patch might not sound like a big deal, in terms of the viability of Hero as a character (i.e not a Shout/Crash mule), this patch is a killing blow. Unless your squad is clearing CWK FAST and get all the loot all the time, you are better off having spent your time and effort on anything other than a Hero.

    Now of course there are ways to loot 3 man boxes and 3-man runners will adapt like always, but this nerf right after the DK roar nerf is a serious feelsbad
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  8. Endorphinss
    Offline

    Endorphinss Pac Pinky

    199
    61
    191
    Jul 28, 2021
    Male
    2:16 AM
    Endorphins
    Im gonna comment only on cwk bonus changes since its the only change that made any impact on me.
    I havent heard a single player in this community that complained about the bonus room being unfair. Flash jump advantage can only matter maybe on 2~3 man runs.
    But in reality, i dont think anyone can loot all boxes on duo runs, and 10 boxes are very likely to be opened on 3man runs, even while getting the further platforms without FJ.
    This is said specially because 2~3man runs already consist of experienced players that can handle the bonus room.
    Flash jump is completely irrelevant in 4+ man runs. If so, what sort of equality this change brings? the only thing in common for everyone
    in the bonus room right now is everyone is pretty much fucked.
    Miss 1 jump crucial jump, you will probably miss some boxes, Where before missing a jump is a rare occasion.

    Now i dont want only to complain without trying to provide any beneficial input.
    The actual problems that this pq had or still has, that can be changed to make it better:
    - Sign bugs where expedition leader cannot be identified after leaving map / disconnecting ( FIXED )
    - 12 mandatory signs, 2 from each class, completely unnecessary ( FIXED )
    these 2 points are the least major problems, but the following imo are an actual changes that can change the pq:
    - pirate boss is only reliably pinned by 1 class in the game (SE), and from that same class, MM sometimes struggle doing so
    - pirate boss cant be handled by more than one person without the boss spamming knockback attacks
    - archer room is significantly harder and longer compared to the rest of the room, causing a big time sink and making everyone wait
    - DC bugs for cleaves the hurt pirate boss. Hard to recreate.

    Instead of changing the only part in this pq that was never an issue, how about trying the following:
    - Make pirate reliably pinnable by more classes, idm if its only ranged classes
    maybe add a teleport really close to the pirate to allow cleaves to pin it and have the abillity to dodge DP attack?
    will bring a non afk aspect to the run and open the boss for more classes than BM.
    Also let multiple people hit this god dam boss without it spamming shark attacks
    - Move some of the mobs from archer room to warrior room
    reduce the waiting time from everyone in the class room stage and help lower level archers not to be a major setback to the run

    Please revert bonus nerfs :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  9. Tommygunner
    Online

    Tommygunner Mr. Anchor

    263
    69
    251
    Oct 29, 2020
    7:16 PM
    As much as I do dislike cwkpq 3man being nerfed, im not sure if supply of those scrolls/items from cwkpq will be greatly affected. It's a lot more accessible now; I often had to bring like 4 mules to my own runs, as some of my friends only had 1 or 2 characters. Now they don't have to worry about finding enough signs even when I'm not there. I do agree cwkpq looting stage can be a bit stressful, even on 4 mans, so maybe adding teleport or even giving more time would be nice.

    As for the mage change, i think it's great, and given that even for NLs of same "attack" they can do different damage depending on dex/luk distribution, i think its fair for mages to have same problem depending on int/luk distribution. I'm glad mage bossers got buffed.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  10. DrChuchu
    Offline

    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

    221
    97
    215
    Sep 21, 2020
    Male
    7:16 PM
    DrPikachu
    Night Lord
    200
    Thank you guys for the feedback. It's very helpful.

    The statements below are my personal opinion and do not reflect the opinions of staff, in whole or in part.

    I do like to read everyone's comments, good and bad.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  11. OP
    OP
    beegoratto
    Online

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,453
    423
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:16 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    I do want to mention that I primarily run duo and even before the patch I would bring a sweeper to help, meaning I only ever have to loot 8 boxes, and therefore I’m likely less affected by this change than those running trios as 8 is significantly easier to loot than 10. Despite this, I still think the changes feel pretty bad and would rather see them reverted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
  12. DrChuchu
    Offline

    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

    221
    97
    215
    Sep 21, 2020
    Male
    7:16 PM
    DrPikachu
    Night Lord
    200
    Aside from bonus stage, do you guys have any feedback on the rest of CWKPQ? What's good/bad, what you like/dislike, not necessarily only the November changes. Feel free to DM me directly if you don't feel comfortable sharing thoughts here!
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 5
  13. OP
    OP
    beegoratto
    Online

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,453
    423
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:16 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    I can't speak towards the signs requirement personally since I'm unaffected by it, although it does seem nice and the new UI is pretty cute. Huge fan of the platform changes to prevent you from randomly falling through the floor. Didn't care much for the removal of shortcuts but at the end of the day it's a minor change.

    Best change imo is that leaving party as expedition leader doesn't end the expedition. Haven't had a dc yet, but did have a small lag spike during the run and it was just a big relief knowing that it wasn't entirely over even if a dc happened.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Tarnished
    Offline

    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

    217
    109
    210
    Jun 13, 2022
    Male
    4:16 PM
    Confessor, Tarnished, Hawthorn
    Hero
    200
    Thanks for reading. Every other update to CWK from the November changes was excellent, especially fixing some of the "lose instantly" conditions such as expedition lead leaving. This is going to save new parties so much pain and suffering.

    As far as feedback beyond the November patch, for reasons Endorphinss mentioned, the strength of your pirate pin is a massive bottleneck in this PQ - both for clear speed as well as actually forming a party. Most archers want to heavily wash especially BMs who want MP for Hurricane. By the time an archer washes out and is strong enough to clear archer room + pirate boss, the world is their oyster and CWK is not a priority content pick because the EXP is weak for them and the monetary gain is moderate unless you run fast 2/3 mans. Your party can get around this by having multiple weaker archers which will be good for the Archer Room, but Pirate boss itself is better handled by a high lv NL who won't get destroyed by the Shark spam which feels like going against the spirit of the PQ.

    I also wish we could ride mounts in CWK. I understand for class identity reasons, PQs are designed to exaggerate fantasy archetype differences, but it's almost 2024 - NLs are the tanks now meanwhile the budget classes have been getting flogged for poor mobility since KPQ. Even with Silvermane, Warrior/Bucc/Shad/SE still have subhuman movement compared to NL/Mage, allowing mounts in CWK would bridge a bit of that QoL gap without breaking immersion - not to mention everyone has to wait for the slowest characters anyway.

    Another small pet peeve of mine is that if you play on anything smaller than HD Client 2, on the JQ with the Fire and the Bats you can't see the sigils unless you go to the closest column of platforms which is suboptimal because it's easy to fall off and not every class has something that lets them stand on the obstacle. This could be fixed by adding some kind of visual to the closer edge of the sigil platforms.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
  15. OP
    OP
    beegoratto
    Online

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,453
    423
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:16 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    One strategy I've seen to get around this is to "lure" instead of pin on the right side. Still use puppet like normal, but luring instead of pinning. It's not as consistent but still gets the Pirate out of the way til everyone else is done and then everyone else can help clean up.

    I think leaving Pirate as an archer niche and goal for strong archers is a positive, personally. There's few roles that can only be filled by a strong archer and this is one of them, and it's nice to have something to work towards. Just my 2c.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. fartsy
    Offline

    fartsy Zakum

    1,463
    1,019
    491
    Jun 29, 2017
    Male
    6:16 PM
    Fartsy
    F/P Mage
    Pasta
    double shot and final attack with booster+si for pirate pin right ^___^
     
    • Creative Creative x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. DrChuchu
    Offline

    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

    221
    97
    215
    Sep 21, 2020
    Male
    7:16 PM
    DrPikachu
    Night Lord
    200
    Thanks for your guys' feedback so far! Please continue to do so :shamemb:

    Early update on bonus stage:


    *140 speed and 123 jump forced, teleporter to middle added, still limited use of movement skills

    Please note that these changes will go live next patch. Big thanks to our wizard PastaPasta for his hard work.

    ----------------

    In the meantime, please bear with us on the current patch. Below are strats I used to test the current bonus stage, that may help you to clear more boxes:


    Jumping was used to reset pet position prior to hitting boxes
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    • Great Work Great Work x 23
    • Like Like x 2
  18. OP
    OP
    beegoratto
    Online

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,453
    423
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:16 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    This would be amazing. I'm assuming the movement speed and jump represented in the video will not be the same as on live, however?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. DrChuchu
    Offline

    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

    221
    97
    215
    Sep 21, 2020
    Male
    7:16 PM
    DrPikachu
    Night Lord
    200
    Oh sorry, to clarify: 140 speed/123 jump will be forced in the map, similar to anniversary event's tower JQ. Mage teleport and NL flash jump are still disabled. We hope that this will make the bonus stage more equitable to all classes, as well as for rolled bonus positions.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. OP
    OP
    beegoratto
    Online

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,453
    423
    455
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:16 PM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    Oh holy moly huge. Ok fantastic changes, that honestly addresses a lot of the concerns I was going to bring up.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page