Balance Changes/Vent

Briefs · Oct 10, 2023

-ovv said: ↑

Might as well give this thread a read.

What makes you think HP challenges will solve HP washing? What gives you the confidence that a large majority of the server prefers making challenge system characters over making end-game viable characters?

Not trying to be combative. I agree that the prevalence of leech has a stranglehold on this server, and the server probably could have been better had it never existed. As someone who has admonished the potential problems of a leech-dependent server in this thread 2 years ago, it seems like the player sentiment has changed quite a bit with new promises, new content releases, and a new generation of players.

The fact is some people enjoy leeching, so taking that away in order to force every player through a less efficient, cookie cutter content pipeline might not be the best move. Making new characters is enjoyable for old players and new players alike. However, regulating how they're played would make things less enjoyable for more players (new players not affected, some old players affected). New players are still free to play their characters without leech dependency, and the challenge system will help with the HP washing optional woes. However, the process of making an end-game viable character is much different than the process of making a character that has access to all content, and new players shouldn't be barred from the access to making an end-game viable character by eliminating leech. There would need to be an alternative method.

FWIW, my comment about new misinformed players isn't even a jab at OP. I don't really care if people are misinformed about something as long as they're open to learning/discussing. It's hard to convey tone through text sometimes, and people interpret things in their own preconceived tone as well.
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No worries, and I wasn't the least bit offended by your "new here" comment btw. I'm sure a significant amount of people will want to optimize HP/MP and would still prefer the INT washing method (im under the impression though that pretty much every class will be endgame viable at 180+ through the challenges though, at least that was my understanding of the aim of the challenges in the first place). Same with leeching, where a significant amount of people would prefer having access to leech and easy leveling. I just don't think what people want always lines up with what they'll actually enjoy and what will keep them playing in the long run. Many people would probably love a big increase in CS/WS drop rates, or a significant buff to their favorite class, but would you say that such changes would be good for player retention (assuming their fav class isn't underpowered)? I personally think that increasing player interactivity, with both the game content and other players will be good for player retention, especially in a game like ML which is known as a "social MMO". I'm by no means an authority on the subject, as I've said before, this is simply what I think would be good for the game.
I honestly won't claim to know the changes in player perception to leech when compared to several years ago, and I agree that limiting player choice isn't necessarily ideal, but I would rather expand player choice by making more content viable that plays to the games strengths (such are party quests) as opposed to content like leech. The analogy I'll make here is similar to the reason Carvival PQ wasn't and will not be introduced to ML, and I suspect many players would love for it to be introduced, but without significant changes, it would simply become the optimal way to level from 30-50 (or whatever the ranges were) and invalidate other content at those level ranges. It will increase player choice, and would likely be supported by players, but I don't think it would be enjoyed by most players to the same extent as the content its replacing. Again, just my opinion.

Subterlabor · Oct 10, 2023

beegoratto said: ↑

Concentrate downtime is 2 min out of 6. I stopped reading after that part.
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same. any content where dpm matters I cider for the 2 mins and Im right back into concentrate anyways

-ovv · Oct 10, 2023

Briefs said: ↑

No worries, and I wasn't the least bit offended by your "new here" comment btw. I'm sure a significant amount of people will want to optimize HP/MP and would still prefer the INT washing method (im under the impression though that pretty much every class will be endgame viable at 180+ through the challenges though, at least that was my understanding of the aim of the challenges in the first place). Same with leeching, where a significant amount of people would prefer having access to leech and easy leveling. I just don't think what people want always lines up with what they'll actually enjoy and what will keep them playing in the long run. Many people would probably love a big increase in CS/WS drop rates, or a significant buff to their favorite class, but would you say that such changes would be good for player retention (assuming their fav class isn't underpowered)? I personally think that increasing player interactivity, with both the game content and other players will be good for player retention, especially in a game like ML which is known as a "social MMO". I'm by no means an authority on the subject, as I've said before, this is simply what I think would be good for the game.
I honestly won't claim to know the changes in player perception to leech when compared to several years ago, and I agree that limiting player choice isn't necessarily ideal, but I would rather expand player choice by making more content viable that plays to the games strengths (such are party quests) as opposed to content like leech. The analogy I'll make here is similar to the reason Carvival PQ wasn't and will not be introduced to ML, and I suspect many players would love for it to be introduced, but without significant changes, it would simply become the optimal way to level from 30-50 (or whatever the ranges were) and invalidate other content at those level ranges. It will increase player choice, and would likely be supported by players, but I don't think it would be enjoyed by most players to the same extent as the content its replacing. Again, just my opinion.
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I don't think anybody disagrees that facilitating for more social interactions in this game is good, but the reason why the early levels are ghost towns is because it's by design. This is a 2x server and the exp curve is designed to funnel people out of 1st-3rd job and PQ level ranges pretty quickly. The majority of a player's time, should they choose to stick around, is spent in the 135+ bossing levels which have their own social elements to them. But bossing isn't the only content that exists in these levels. One could grind (independently or with a partner), or farm (farming logs/journals), or explore (card hunt, quest), or sell leech, which has a fair bit of a social element to it too. However, one thing they all share in common is that they all point towards higher levels of progress and harder, longer form content.

Gutting leech and how mages function in this server might lead to more social interactions at the lower level, but with how everything funnels towards late game, I highly doubt it'd make much of an impact. People would just latch onto the next most efficient strategy while complaining about how much harder things are compared to before. Likewise, newer players would have a much harder time catching up to those who are already established.

That being said, while I think asking for mages to become more viable attackers is a perfectly fine ask -- and I agree that their ults are what's holding them back from further buffs -- I think changing a central playstyle for a fairly large percentage of the players in this server will only serve to destabilize what's been somewhat stable and could potentially cause more players to leave. IMO, the quest to implement something big and bold that might attract new players is only wishful thinking at this point.

Subterlabor · Oct 10, 2023

We should buff buccs. They get whited by BM's 15 levels lower (if the BM doesnt' get hit much kek)

Alyosha · Oct 10, 2023

My main takeaway is that people who are or were BM mains are toxic. Can we force convert -ovv and beegorato to marksmen? It's too late for Skarmory but maybe we can fix the rest of them now with this one little trick

TermiteLover · Oct 10, 2023

Alyosha said: ↑

My main takeaway is that people who are or were BM mains are toxic. Can we force convert -ovv and beegorato to marksmen? It's too late for Skarmory but maybe we can fix the rest of them now with this one little trick
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BM = Bad Manners.
Coincidence... I think not!

-ovv · Oct 10, 2023

Give me alt tab hurricane back

beegoratto · Oct 10, 2023

Alyosha said: ↑

My main takeaway is that people who are or were BM mains are toxic. Can we force convert -ovv and beegorato to marksmen? It's too late for Skarmory but maybe we can fix the rest of them now with this one little trick
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https://youtube.com/shorts/0IJDd5TNGss?si=rpiCQseMy13W736W

TORONTOTOKYO · Oct 10, 2023

Alyosha said: ↑

My main takeaway is that people who are or were BM mains are toxic.
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its from the years of overinflated bow 30s.

ryanlights · Oct 10, 2023

beegoratto said: ↑

What is a "mobber"
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https://youtu.be/tMxXtOU09tM?si=AmIzyLxgKZmFFJk0

LiquidOoze · Oct 10, 2023

Alyosha said: ↑

My main takeaway is that people who are or were BM mains are toxic. Can we force convert -ovv and beegorato to marksmen? It's too late for Skarmory but maybe we can fix the rest of them now with this one little trick
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Explains a lot about you honestly fartsy.

Oradious · Oct 11, 2023

Luckily as a BM player I am not toxic

Subterlabor · Oct 11, 2023

Oradious said: ↑

Luckily as a BM player I am not toxic
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I can be sometimes I guess, but only when people can't/won't respect the host and runners in content we here to chill and have fun, don't be pepega making runs fail with bad attitude. We shall fail gloriously, laughing instead

Ambrose · Oct 16, 2023

Bowmaster's concentration skill is like that because it currently doesn't stack with external weapon attack boosting buffs. We've asked for the ability for concentration to stack for many years now but sadly it hasn't happened yet.

As for Mage's ultimate abilities, please don't group bishops in here. Bishops need an all-rounded damage buff (including genesis).

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Balance Changes/Vent

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-ovv Horntail

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Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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-ovv Horntail

beegoratto Zakum

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Balance Changes/Vent

Briefs Mano

Subterlabor Headless Horseman

-ovv Horntail

Subterlabor Headless Horseman

Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

TermiteLover Brown Teddy

-ovv Horntail

beegoratto Zakum

TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

ryanlights Windraider

LiquidOoze Mixed Golem

Oradious Mr. Anchor

Subterlabor Headless Horseman

Ambrose Stone Golem

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