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Class balance, should warriors be viable?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    Give this man a cookie
    AGREE AGREE AND AGAIN AGREE
    nothing but the truth!
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  2. mathijs2000
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    mathijs2000 Mushmom

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    Alternative title: should warriors be good at grinding, cleaving AND also single target dpm?
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
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    • Agree Agree x 2
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  3. imsteven
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    imsteven Mushmom

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but cleave got more options for bossing still than single target DPM has for grinding.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    I think no one meant warrior will take single target glory but a little boost not gonna harm single target classes.
    An easier way to look at it is like buccaneer can focus on single target once in a while and he can grind and also useful in cleave.
    Also MM and Corsair can grind and also be really good in single target.
    I think the game is already built in that way but some classes got some rightful tweaks and warriors not.
    How ever for heroes and pallys which is considered as an pure attacker class have no much to offer for late game bosses (pallys can be great at Tokyo though)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  5. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Lol bucc cleave is extremely weak unless you hit 6 mobs at once which doesn't happen in most scenarios.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    That's true but they are useful for cleavers cause they can Si and cause not too bad damage. They also can train easily and do single attack.
    I'm not saying they are perfect but it's a simple example of how 1 class can be part of all game content regarding to what mathijs said
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  7. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    I would say the only thing that helps buccs access more game content is with SI/TL. If you look at dpm numbers, the single target dmg of a bucc is about the same as a dpm of a hero (w/ SI) hitting one target. Our cleave skill, snatch, will only outdamage our single target skill if we cleave 3 or more parts. Hitting 6 parts (which does not ever happen in a bossing scenario) only does a bit more than 2x the damage of our single target skill. So you can see, it's more valuable for a bucc to focus on single target since any shad/hero/dk will do much more cleave damage.

    So by having mediocre single target damage and piss-poor cleave damage, it's only SI/TL (which is unique to the class) that allows buccs to access content. Note also those are easily mule-able skills.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  8. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Looking nervously at Hero and Ciders.
    Looking nervously at Dks and 360int Int-Lords.

    I don't know much about bucc, but they seems to be really good at pinning stuffs also.
    Buccs just offer so much more than single/cleave damage, for both class, damage itself will get out classed by your range attackers anyway.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    When compared with similar caliber of gears and level, Hero/DrK single target damage output is still usually with like 80-85% of ranged single target damage output, so they're not losing out on much in single target situations and will far overpower ranged classes in cleave situation. In bosses with mixed single target and cleaving situations (Jiaoceng, Horntail) cleave classes will generally output more damage than ranged classes unless the composition is heavily cleave slanted. Even in pure single target situations, cleaving classes have advantages over ranged classes that aren't reflected in dummy DPM:

    • Cleaver classes give zero fuck about any sort of summons and will just casually dismantle them while still doing damage to the boss and not missing a beat. Ranged classes, meanwhile, will at best waste their firepower on the summons, and at worst just be clogged up as the summons swarm them and not even able to deal damage. Have you ever seen HT runs where the bishop died and the wyverns are swarming the Ranged department? My regular runs are with a group with zero NLs most of the time so we can usually deal with them somehow, but it ain't pretty when this happens to a bunch of NLs. This also applies to bosses like Zakum; the ability for ranged classes to even deal damage to Zakum most the time hinges on the cleaves of the party to clear out the summons that didn't go up, and when I tried a solo the other day, towards the end of the fight I was able to shoot at Zakum maybe once every five shots because there's always a bajillion tablets buzzing in my face, blocking all my hits and causing me to use Mortal Blow.
    • Cleaver classes can (usually) choose to hug the boss in order to dodge a magic attack. This is extremely evident in CWK where any ranged classes trying to do the cleave section when Rellik is still alive is basically wasting their time and pots, but it's also very helpful in a lot of other bosses - you can dodge stun/seal from Zakum, not give a fuck about any of Vergamot's annoying bag of tricks, can actually fight Targa instead of being stunlocked, and be less vulnerable to a less facing PB casting sed (although this one may be more difficult in practice because of skulls).
    • In the same vein as the first point, Cleaver classes also could care less about maps with other mobs on them. This is a bit of a niche point, but it's mostly evident in Bigfoot (ranged classes have a terrible time fighting BF in Evil Dead or Rising Evil without deploying a friend or mule to distract the elderwraiths), and will also be evident in Royal Guard when NT part 2 gets released.
    In most of the above points I had archers and NLs in mind when considering "ranged classes". It's true that none of them apply to Paladins, Buccaneers, or Corsairs (to some degree), but Paladins and Buccaneers also have less single target damage to compensate, and Corsairs have a ton of their own shit to deal with already.

    The main reason why there are so many single target friendly bossing situations compared to cleave friendly bossing situations is because, in most single target situations, even though cleaver classes don't deal as much damage as ranged classes, they're still dealing almost as much damage when played correctly, and only the most tryhard groups (or groups headed by ignorant leaders) will outright reject them. (The only exception I can think of is BGA/The Boss, but those are more related to other attributes to the cleaver classes rather than an issue of cleaving versus ranged as a whole). Meanwhile, in pure cleave favored situations (CWK cleaving, Scarga), ranged classes are basically completely useless because they can't even fight properly. The notion that cleaving classes don't have a place in bossing just because they don't deal as much single target damage is patently absurd.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 13
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  10. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    ^This right here. LOL its unreal how many of you in this thread think like this. Staff should just go ahead and close this thread too. Too many trolls :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:
     
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  11. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    As a NL player I just can't agree with everything you said althought its not completly wrong.

    as for fighting BF - Archer can summon thier phoenix to kill the dummys mobs and also use puppet to distract BF, as for NL class they can use once in a while avenger and also at high levels ninja storm which basically should push the mobs but it also cause enough damage so the mob is just instant die.
    as for Scarga and tagra - this is again where range attackers can "lose" one time skill and using avenger which I agree cause low damage but 1 time skill and map is clear.
    upload_2021-2-8_9-58-56.png
    this is the amount of time I ran scar/tagra on my NL and for me it was non-issue. there are so many problems on NL class but this is not one for them.

    as for zakum summons - did you tried to solo zakum? cause by your story it sounds like you did.
    anyways, Zakum is abit difficult to solo as range I agree but if you timing it right to kill his summons on weapon cancel and not just avoid to their existence for the whole run - its nothing your DPM could be effect from. as a comparation from NL to Archer - archer can do it much more easily.
    upload_2021-2-8_10-1-25.png

    for HT and cleavers - HT summon his mobs like once in 10 -15 seconds? and when i ran HT 6-12 man, Bishops just one gene them and they gone and it never been an issue for me as a NL.
    also for cleave - you taking risk to seduce all party if you hit hands and head in one time, so to be safe cleavers take down the heads first and then there is no where to cleave.
    (i ran HT 10 times cause my NL rellied on HB and i found it annoying)
    btw the most of HT summons - bishops deal with it so even as an hero I almost never deal with them too - cause they almost never reached to my position/head position (where range attackers standing)

    I dont think i ever been in a run where cleavers didnt done CWKPQ bosses and range did, maybe rare 2-3 runs.
    this is a whole different topic but if you bring it here lets talk about it.
    at CWKPQ I agree, cleavers doing the most of damage for cleave bosses and range attackers will find it hard to fight against them specially archers/sairs (cause their avoid is shit)
    but as someone who did cwkpq for 89 times (61 as NL and 28 as Hero), I find it hard to remember when range finished their bosses before cleavers did.
    this is also true for 4man run.
    If you lead it right, and find the right attackers the following cenerio is never happend.
    btw, did you ever try to hit Pirate as a cleaver? 6/10 of attacks just not register which is never happend to me as a NL.

    your point is - cleavers are necessary cause it makes things easier, but what Ive tried to say here is, if you manage it right and being a decent skilled player, cleavers not always needed and range attackers dont really need them for bossing as cleavers need range attackers for bossing.

    I think we kinda out of topic, thread creator ask "what-if" question about what if HP wasnt a thing and if it happend would there any warriors (also true for bucc)?
    and as I see it, its not that absurd to assume the amount of warriors and bucc would be much small than its now.

    yes sir, you are right.
    but bucc considered as an supporter class and not attacker.
    buccaneer doing same dmg in single target as hero (which I think bucc doing slightly more in terms of single attack), but it considered as a supporter slot in party and not attacker.

    good vibes guys cheers :)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    When new players hit lvl 140 on an unwashed NL, he comes in an say, "what? nobody told me I got to HP wash, what's with this shitty game that forces me to remake my NL?"
    Then, the community say, "well bro, you are a friggin adult. Get yr act together and educate yourself before jumping in"

    So, alright, I guess some of us decides to become "adults", and has decided to educate ourself before diving in.
    Starting a mage class first, and wow, I guess Heroes looks more fun and stable, so before playing, lets read up a little and see what my "crappy" buddies and guildies have to say.
    "Ohh man bro, Heroes have harder time joining HT now. I've no friggin idea why but this is what I think:"

    Ohh no, guess Heroes are kinda sad. Wait, isn't this inbalance? Maybe I'll throw a suggestion around it.

    "Bro, you don't even have a lvl 180 hero, don't even talk about it when you haven't go through the hardship"
    Hmm, yeah, he does have a point but, ain't I supposed to educate before jumping in?
    Guess my crappy buddies and guildies have fooled me.

    So, most people played ML this way:
    Create bishop -> Vote 2 accounts -> Self-Leech a 10.5k HP NL

    Well technically thats wrong. It should be:
    Create NL -> play till lvl 150 -> Curse and swear that you can't join PB due to no washing -> Create bishop -> Vote 2 accounts -> Self-Leech a 10.5k HP NL

    After all, if we jumped in first, we are told to educate ourselves. If we took our time to read up, hear from other players we play with, and theorized stuffs, we are called trolls.

    Also, after 2 enraged threads and 3 class balance threads, the only useful info comes from Nise's DPM calculations and RegalStar's post here, and some experiences of other players regarding energizers. The rest are either with people like me going in circles with limited information, or experienced Heroes belittling us for not knowing enough.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    You are getting belittled because we are telling you information and you guys are refusing to listen. It seems you guys are just selectively reading what is going on in these threads. Or just trolls.

    We are straight up telling you guys warriors are hardly imbalanced. You guys keep making more threads about balance. How is that not trolling? You guys want Heros to do single target and cleave damage L O L. Stop making these threads and go spend that time making a range character :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:

    Can staff just close this thread, this is ridiculous. These are worse than cakesogood threads. Just look at how this thread is even titled. You guys are spreading FUD that warriors are not viable to begin with.
     
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  14. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I agree with you that its balanced, and I'm sure a good deal of us, though not everyone, did read everything. Yet, some of us still felt something needs to be done, regardless of our beliefs.

    There's two sides to those who believes changes is required.

    First camps: Heroes are subjectively left out in higher level bosses, these bosses favors single target, therefore single target damage needs boost.
    Second camps: Heroes are subjectively left out in higher level bosses, as the meta favors single target more. We need more late-game cleaving-meta bosses.

    I'm on second camp.

    Did you actually read the thread?
    Ohh wait...

    I guess you only read half
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I think you need to understand this first. Other than one or two, there is no one asking for cleave to be out right buffed.
    There is just a concern that bossing are more and more single target orientated (single target meta), with the HT change and PB introduction.
    Of course you can do your part to boost the popularity of warrior by smega " R > warrior for _____", instead of attacker which people normally assoicate with range only.
    I am not joking above, because it really helps to spread the popularity of a class.

    Anyway, you need to stop thinking as a lv200, because you are going to be invited for anything and everything really.
    Imagine you are at least 6 months into ML with a lv140 bishop/mage as first char, and want to make a sweaty attacker as a 2nd char.
    Do you think with the meta right now, it will be "yeah man, I gonna make a Hero! because ?????" ......

    It is about tuning each different classes and meta to all have their own unique appeal.
    As much as we meme DKs as HB mule sometimes, their HB is still giving their class a very strong appeal.
    And why we focus the discussion on Heros specifically is because its rage is basically cider, and Hero's party buff is a 1k potion. Which just feels sad really.

    Anyway, regarding FUD. I think(?) I will be the first to raise FUD regarding DKs and 30k HP ranges in the not so near future.
    Btw, it takes around 6.5m NX (3 years of voting) to wash an almost 30k HP clean range at lv160.
    If beginner until 11X > bishop for absurb HP is consider exploiting, I really dont see much why ridiculously washed range character is not exploiting in the same sense.

    I think i diverse a bit from the warrior/cleave stuffs going up on top, but I just want type my thoughts down for the future.
    Appericate RegalStar's post to point out the important and utility of cleave.
     
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  16. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    He's not getting invited because he's level 200. He's getting invited because he has friends. How do you think he got to 200 in the first place lol. Don't put the cart before the horse. Heroes can still do end game content, just get some good friends and run with them. I don't get what's so difficult to understand about this. Yes if you're in some random bossing discord and some host you don't know is r> attacker maybe you wont get accepted but hey, you know, friends are nice to have

    And yeah people will wanna make heroes cause not everyone wants to make a bish first then wait half a year for nx then leech a ranged attacker up. With a hero you can jump straight into anything.

    You can also grind if that's the nostalgic experience you're looking for. Hf doing that as an NL.

    Edit: I've done over 400 HT's according to my bossing history of which 300+ are runs I've hosted myself. If I'm lacking some attacker or something the first thing I do is reach out to my friends. I don't care if they're not the most optimal class for a particular slot (I don't have any NL's in my squad), but if I'm in a HT run for 3 hours I want to be able to have fun with you. I'd take a suboptimal friend over some highly geared NL stranger. I'd rather the runs take 5-10mins longer if it means I can have fun with friends.
     
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  17. jesscapades
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    jesscapades Pac Pinky

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    are you saying it costs 6.5m nx to get a warrior to 30k? If so, that's not true

    If you're talking about 6.5m nx to get a range class to 30k, that seems plausible, but it's irrelevant because you don't need 30k hp for anything. 24k is enough to do everything in the game w/o hb, and even then you only really need 23k with tier 10.

    Plus, I feel like this actually shows that heroes have an advantage in that they can meet HP requirements without such a large NX investment. I think more people get excluded from runs due to low HP than heroes get excluded due to damage. If HP washing becomes easier, I can see how this would warrant a discussion, but it would have to be a big change imo. HP washing is like, 4x faster for warriors? I'm not 100% sure of the exact number but that's a huge plus for playing a hero.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  18. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Saying Im only being invited to runs because I am level 200 is ridiculous. I've been getting invited to runs since I started putting myself out there. Like BananaPie said, how do you think I even got to 200 in the first place? LOL. Smegaing "R> warrior for ___" is just stupid. Why would I limit myself to recruiting just one class unless its for CWK? There are other classes that can help cleave as well.

    I'm not thinking as a lvl 200. I'm saying things that are applicable to warriors of all levels.

    Also if people aren't being invited as much as they would like to, maybe they should look internally.

    ^ This sums it up quite nicely.

    OR how about you put in the work yourself and start hosting your own runs? Some of you arent even willing to put in real work before jumping to complain.
     
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  19. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    Doing bad dpm cause your class not fit to boss meta?
    Rely on your friends or host it your self.
    That's how you solve problems?
     
  20. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Listen to yourself. You agree that warrior is balanced but you think something needs to be changed? What would you have changed then, make them IMBA?

    Also, people not recruiting warriors prove nothing about game balance. There's a recent story of some zak run leader rejecting a level 180 something paladin because they wanted NLs, but it says nothing about balance between paladin and NL (I assure you that a level 180 paladin can easily outdamage most NLs that are still looking for zak), only that this particular run leader is an idiot. People also yell "R>BM" all the time as if BM's the only archer that exists, but no one in their right mind (and actually knows about the archer situation) will tell you right now that Marksmen are underpowered compared to Bowmasters, especially in most environments this actually applies to (the only exception being CWK where solo marksman has a harder time pinning the pirate boss than bowmaster).
     
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