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Class balance, should warriors be viable?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Based on nise's warrior formula compliation, which focus on single target DPM:
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/warrior-damage-comparison-neo-tokyo-vers.30381/

    Hero using brandish deals 10.19m at lvl 200, (perf 2H NT Sword + SE + SI) and Paladin deals deals 10.62m at lvl 200, (perf 2H NT Sword + SE + SI)
    On bosses, paladin has a much weaker cleave, as HH only deals 50k damage on bosses every 15 seconds. Buffing hero's single target may make paladin too weak in comparision

    I agree that all classes are viable late game. But my stance is: current meta is heavily dependant on single-target DPM. we need either a new boss, or patching old boss, to be heavily dependant on cleave DPM.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    So it looks like we are looking at roughly 5% difference. If heroes gets a skill that turns cleave to single target only and increase damage by 5% they would be more or less equal. The difference between the classes at that point will be gear dependent, and more realistically social dependent as no one will take a hero over pally or vise versa purely due to one class is better. Which is what we want right?

    The problem is if NL and BM is doing 50% more damage, then in this case there is no reason to not take a ranged over warrior. So the difference here need to be shrunk down to maybe 5% or whatever it is so that a good geared warrior is more or less on equal with average gear NL so parties will be able to pick the warrior and not be severely handicapped by the decision.

    Also regarding adding cleave bosses, maybe consider that if most bosses are single target, then stop using cleave damage as a parameter when it comes to boss damage balancing?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Haaaaayyyyy
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    Haaaaayyyyy Red Snail

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    Instead of buffing the damage output of Heros and Paladins, we can give them a good party buff which keeps them viable in parties during the late game. DrKs have one of the best party buffs, hyperbody, which keeps them viable at the late game even without zerk. Enrage can be a party buff for heroes and possibly increase the attack on it as well. We can tack on a "Threaten-like" effect to holy charge that makes your attacks also reduce monster weapon defense by 5% at max level.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    On bosses, paladins have much weaker cleave compared to hero. Making hero's single target to match paladin's will make paladin lose one of its uniqueness. If paladin's cleave is then modified to match heroes, den there's very little left to make each class special.

    NL and BM has high single target, and pretty crappy cleave/aoes. if hero & paladin's single target is made to be stronger, NL and BM's cleave/aoe needs to be boosted to for balance. but doing it this way will make each class less unique, and lose class identity.

    Not too sure what you mean by here, but I assume is - if hitting siingle target -> damage is increased. This have the same impact as the newer GMS enrage => where brandish is changed to a single attack. As explained above, this will make Hero too op as they are already good with cleaving, which makes it necessary to boost NL/MM's cleave/aoe, which will make classes lose class identity.

    IMO, there should be new bosses that favors cleave, and discourage single-target, all while having challenges and rewards as good as PB instead, so we do not need to worry about cleave VS single DPM
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I believe those DPM measurements are old, like before the Holy Charge buff on Paladins.

    If the graph wasn't changed then it would also measure SE damage on heroes as (2.6 + 1.4) x 1.9 rather than how it's believed to work currently, which is (2.6 x 1.9) + 1.4. If both of these factors are the case then the gap would be larger.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. asdfjkliang
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    asdfjkliang Selkie Jr.

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    Thoughts on giving heros extra mastery? Drks have it ‍♀️
     
  7. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    If you list out the exact gear, I can pull up a nice looking graph that shows the comparison between the two individuals. Main gear set + glove + cape + base stats.

    (This would be with the latest and most accurate version of the calculations)
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  8. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    This hero wasn't mine
    But I can use my hero and my NL with same gear (gloves cape face acc eye acc)
    My hero will do a bit less than the other hero I posted here.
    The gap will be about 2m
    A warrior weapon is about 1b and NL claw worth 170-200m
    If you want I'll write the details :)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I definitely would like to see the calculation for it.
    Probably for a different reason, as I would like to have more information on planning my own gears
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Shabtai
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    Shabtai Red Snail

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    Thank you all for wise information and opinions.
    My hero(111) will not go into late game cuz it's better to invest in a ranged char, after he didn't enjoy early game cuz of washing and int/leeching.

    I would NOT recommend this server to anyone in it's current state. Although I'm too invested and probably will keep playing casually.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  11. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Okay I took some liberty of making some assumptions:
    • "NL with ~300mil gear"
      • If the 70 wa craven is = 200mil, remainder of his main weapon att gear has to be mediocre
      • 12 attack glove (~ 60 mil)
      • 3 attack clean cape (~20 mil)
      • Balanced Furies (~18 mil)
    • "Hero with ~1.5 bil to 2 bil gear"
      • 138 wa claymore (1 slot) was sold before for around 1.8 b, so I'm going to say that a 136 wa (0 slot) is more like 1.2 bil MAX
      • 14 attack glove (~ 300 mil)
      • 8 attack cape (~ 500 mil?)
    • Common gear
      • Zhelm - 32 dex
      • Rat mouth - 6 dex
      • Goggles - 2 str / 2 dex
      • Earring - 10 dex
      • MoN - 5 wa, 6 all stat
      • Shoes - 8 dex
      • Rings - Tier 5 MB & Elin Savior Ring
      • Level 155, with no base INT (but let's be real, NLs at 155 will still have base INT kekw)


    What I imagine happened was you were comparing damage on only SE. In which case, of course you'll get whited by a NL, a claymore with just SE is pretty trash LOL. Do bear in mind that in cleave scenarios, you'll be doing 3x the damage~
     
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  12. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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  13. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Wait though... isn't that guy a Sparta user? I don't even know what a 1.2b worth Sparta would be like, but given that it's much cheaper in base price than Claymore, and 1h sword scrolls are also a lot cheaper I think it's probably feasible to assume perfect sparta (138/21) + something like 16 attack shield? What kind of DPM would that look like, then?

    EDIT: I saw an 131 sparta with c/o of 400m so maybe perfect + 16 shield is kind of a stretch. Something more akin to 135/19 + 16 shield might be closer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I think that comparing sparta isn't a fair indication of class balance since using a 1h sword is less DPS than 2h sword. In that scenario you are comparing a suboptimal hero build to an optimal NL build.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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  16. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Oh I was basing it off this [​IMG]

    I think that might still be wrong, unless you adjusted the formula for that sheet. Hero numbers were like half a mil higher in that sheet iirc.
     
  17. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    I only adjusted for attack speed regarding formula from 0.63 to 0.69 to account for fast(5) but for the rest i took it as is x))
     
  18. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    On the dpm check with kinda similar gear of what you mentioned
    NL did 7 to 7.5m (3 checks)
    Hero did 6m ish (very stable DPM)
    Hero had Si +SE
    NL funded with 300m ish
    Hero funded with 2bto 3b

    But actually I'm tired to do these debates with other players here who just like to disagree with all any suggestion of warrior class that came up.
    Just will note that I never meant that my Sparta and shield worth 2b I talked about the gear it self.
    It's equal to 126 to 127 ST.
    Other than that, good vibes and cheers.
     
  19. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Sounds like the hero invested in some wrong items if that's the case KEKW
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Wait a 155 NL with 300m gear gets 7.5m dpm? My 165 BM with better gear barely gets that much on concentrate. Maybe we should nerf NL instead or I should start charging more for SE.
     

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