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Warrior Warrior Damage Comparison [Neo Tokyo vers]

Discussion in 'Jobs' started by Nise, May 13, 2020.

  1. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    A while back, I released a Warrior Damage Calculator comparing the various weapons and possible damage output of each class: Hero, DK, Paladin. I tried to do lots of adjustable things with that one, which was cool, but a nightmare to edit and correct...

    I adopted jootajoota DPM comparison charts, and made it so you can now see
    1. How certain weapons fare at different stages of the game (level + gear)
    2. How much more a weapon scales with weapon attack (aka which attack pots)
    3. How the different classes compare (hero vs dk vs paladin)
    There is... a lot of charts here, lots of depth... and also a lot of colors... apologies in advance if you're colorblind and this is hard to see.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...3WuYoWp5K6QxB3frO7rXrAjRY/edit#gid=1014746765

    Here is all the formulas updated/corrected as well as Neo Tokyo weapons included in the damage comparisons. Figures for absolute maximum damage were done assuming:
    • Level 200
    • Perfect weapons
    • Perfect gear
    • Gelt chocolate
    • Single Target DPM only... (just multiply by x3 for heroes, and x3 for DKs)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Link to the actual spreadsheet so you can mess with the numbers yourself!
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ux90gJ8xG0geitshYgtKSCfsxavLBmDK


    EDIT 1: Updated incorrect beholder calculation
    EDIT 2: More indepth charts with better visualization
     
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  2. s0mething
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    s0mething Capt. Latanica

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    Based on your calculations, do you think NT spears will ever get buffed?
     
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  3. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    For items that are already released (and have been for a long time now), I would say that staff would be very cautious about adjusting them. The one exception to that rule was for agent equipments back from Summer 2017.... andddd that's a dark history we don't talk about :p
     
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  4. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    paladin so op o-o
     
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  5. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Imagine every class getting buffed from NT but drks are still forced to rely on gachapon for their end game weapon SeemsGood. Good data tho I would be curious on the numbers for PSB (another random weapon drks have to rely on SeemsGood) vs the NT polearm.

    Edit: Here's what I got for PSB
    upload_2020-5-13_8-39-38.png
     
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  6. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    At least for polearms they have a theoretical alternative in Crimson Arcglaive SeemsGood
     
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  7. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    I'd like to know a bit more about the numbers used, because a couple things popped out with my initial glance over things. Like how Dark Knights actually have 80% mastery, as they get an passive +20% from Beholder. For calculating minimum damage as well, no mastery is truly 60%, as that figure is multiplied by .9, which is a weird design choice on Neckson's part but oh well. It would make mastery 54% for Heroes/Paladins and 72% for Dark Knights.[Edit: the 54% part looks correct in the formulas, but Dark Knights are still lacking the Beholder mastery]

    [Another small nitpick is that Brandish deals damage to 3 targets like Crusher does, but that doesn't really effect the posted numbers]

    Is any information known about the order of operations for SE as well? I had assumed that it came after skill damage and before relevant multipliers, like turning 1.7 from Crusher into 3.1 at a 15% rate, before being multiplied by Berserk to become either 3.4 or 6.2. I assumed that ACA and the ele charges did the same for Brandish and Blast. Is that the case?

    And was mw20 used in the calculation? I noticed it was set at 1062 str, but a fully geared level 200 should have somewhere in the ballpark of 1200 str after mw20.
     
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  8. iPippy
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    iPippy Wolfspider

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    I'd imagine zerk would be the first thing that gets added into the calculation, if we follow ayumilove's damage calculation formula (that's when ACA and ele bonuses get added). SE would be added later, when crit chance/damage is rolled/added to the result.

    I'm not sure why the numbers presented are gelt no echo with perfect gear. Sounds odd to assume all of that and not be 200 (thus have echo). I'd imagine the non-att pot numbers would be the ones to compare, as att pots just arent used as much in today's game.

    Sources used:
    https://ayumilovemaple.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/maplestory-formula-compilation/
     
  9. Jean Justen
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    Jean Justen Mushmom

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    Hey, by ''perfect gear'' in the 1h NT sword, you used a 21att shield or a 30att one?
     
  10. thugric
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    thugric Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Avf90PmirnFUtxbqNSIgkuqtRb8wv0UX/view

    Some of your questions might be answered from his spreadsheet
     
  11. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Good catch with the beholder skill, I looked up the other beholder skills, but forgot the ACTUAL original beholder. I'll adjusted the numbers. As for the rest of the masteries, the 0.9 multiplier was already included in the calculations. I can only theorize, but Neckson probably wanted the minimum damage to be even lower than whatever mastery %, and therefore added a multiplier infront. Like how archers get around 90% mastery in 4th job. But 0.9*0.9 brings that minimum damage down a bit further.

    As for how the numbers work, berserk (from what I was able to dig up) isn't a multiplier. Based off the skill description as well as how it interacts with SE damage, berserk is applied before crit damage is calculated. That means it would be additive (which is also what SE is).

    [edit: i'm sort of second guessing myself with zerk now... :confused:]

    So the damage becomes 1.7+1+1.4 (crusher + zerk 30 + SE). ACA and the ele charges are also additive. Though, paladins get a multiplicative 150% damage if the creature you're hitting is element weak. Also note that the hero skill ACA has an incorrect skill descript, compared to how it has historically functioned in-game. Based off how the descript reads, you would think its 250% damage, but from records all the way from 2008 (GMS, KMS, etc) the skill damage is actually 190%.

    You nailed it with how the damage is calculated. As for echo... you know I honestly forget why I didn't add it LOL. Though, I would disagree with attack pots not being used as much. People still use apples/heartstoppers ontop of Echo (since they stack).

    30 attack :D
     
  12. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    A value of 1 from zerk just doesn't seem to add up with the numbers I see in casting, and I sort of just worked backwards from there in trying to understand how the damage is calculated. Maybe it's 2? I don't think I've ever checked non-zerk DPM and compared it to zerk DPM, but if it's slightly more than 2x damage then it would explain things better. If it's exactly 2 then it would be multiplicative.

    The crit lines are also bigger than you'd expect on a Dark Knight as well, with their largest being just under twice the normal max hit. I'll probably do some tests to see, but if SE is applied after zerk then I'm not sure how I get such large crits.
     
  13. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Yea wait I said all that, but the math I put to get those values was an after multiplier of *2 (after SE and everything)... but now I'm second guessing myself because the values seem pretty out of wack with the mastery change to 0.8
     
  14. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    [​IMG]
    DPMs with no SE/no SI/Beholder's 15 att

    8.7m without zerk, 17.45m with zerk, vs. 3 targets for best average.

    Zerk seems to just act like a flat 2x multiplier. I feel like it would be a lot further off with any of the expected additive values.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I also spent a couple minutes trying to get screenshots of the highest damage, with SE it came to 63k and without 34.5k.

    63k / 34.5k = 1.826
    6.2 / 3.4 = 1.823

    It seems to fit with my theory that SE is a 1.4 value added on top of Crusher's 1.7, before being multiplied by 2 with zerk.

    Now we just need a Hero and Paladin to test. OnionF2
     
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  15. Anon
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    Anon Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Not a DK main, but that's how I understand the crit formula to work, 170% base with the +140% crit from SE for a total of 310%. Zerk is then paplied afterwards.
    Combo Orbs and Charges should apply the same way.
    And somewhat related, that's why Barrage's final hit is able to hit so high too. 280% base, +140% from SE, +160% from Stun Mastery, for a total of 580%, and then a nice big 4x damage on the final hit. JUICY.
     
  16. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    hey friend se only increases my dmg by 10k to 15k max
     
  17. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    Purely anecdotal observations: final damage output appears to be x2 for berserk. DPM check at toad with and without smoke seems to back that up too.
     
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  18. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Yea as I mentioned, the calculations were done with x2, my explanation was just wrong for the first reply xD Here's the updated chart with MW20 (properly applied) as well as Echo of Hero (I just did 4% increase in weapon attack after potions, but not sure if its this way...)

    [​IMG]

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ux90gJ8xG0geitshYgtKSCfsxavLBmDK main post updated as well
     
  19. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    I am starting to think that the order of operations on AyumiLove is actually wrong. I did more testing and things tend to line up better with some of the math I do, at least when it comes to Dark Knights.

    I did a few DPMs about a week ago with SE/SI/echo/bear, total str 1138, dex 80, and 188 attack total. It resulted in these:
    [​IMG]
    23.7mil, 23.6mil, and 23.5mil.
    Per target average: 7.866mil DPM

    I then plugged the numbers into the calculator:
    [​IMG]
    And it popped out with this:
    [​IMG]
    Last one is the applicable number. So it showed 7.1mil vs. the 7.866mil average that I actually got in testing.

    Then I ran the math manually with how I believe the damage to be calculated:
    [​IMG]
    (1138(str) x 5(primary multiplier) x .86(average mastery) + 80(dex)) * 188(attack) / 100(attack scaling) x 1.91(Crusher adjusted to be simplified with SE) x 2(Berserk) x 3(Number of lines) x 74(Attacks per minute)

    It's fairly close overall. 7.866mil vs. 7.93mil is about a 1% difference overall, enough that it could be explained by marginal defense on the dummies or just bad luck. Either way some numbers for heroes/paladins would be neat to see as well.
     
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  20. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I think you're still using the old version of the Calc... try the new one I posted
     

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