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Class balance, should warriors be viable?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Lately there has been multiple hp wash related posts, this isn’t one of them! But it was brought to my attention that if we eliminated hp wash everyone will be playing NL and BM and none of the warrior classes will be viable and will be able to join bossing anymore.

    first of all I know parties will be more or less affected by your in game relationships with the rest of the party, but let’s ignore that for argument sake as it was ignored during the above claim.

    so that leads us to the main point: are the damage discrepancies so big that people will be taking average/below average geared NL and BM over above averaged geared warriors? If so should the balance team bring their output closer to the ranged classes so that they are lower on average but not absurdly lower that no one will take them on runs?

    (mages are also in this category but they have ultimate so until that is removed let’s move them to the back and discuss warriors first)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  2. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    One of the big downsides imo is that warriors need SE and SI to have full damage and buccs are pretty rare to have. Compare that to NLs where SE is pretty much guaranteed so they’ll always have max damage. Add onto that dexbuccs were nerfed so anybody muling a bucc now has increased costs. The other big cleave change was related to seduce in HT which made cleaving quite dangerous compared to single target attackers. Even now in PB range attackers have a significant advantage over cleave during statues because cleavers can’t stand outside the range of the owls (still don’t get how this isn’t agro abuse compared to nib). The balance now isn’t too bad imo but it’s a big reason why I’m against adding easy ways to increase HP which helps ranged attackers significantly more than cleavers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
    • Like Like x 1
  3. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Makes sense, so the balance hinges on not a lot of people making NL and BM because they don’t want to wash? I feel that if they want to play the class they’ll play it regardless of getting there by leeching or grinding.

    I guess my point is should all classes be viable, hypothetically if hp wash is gone, would making warriors closer to par with ranged in terms of damage resolve the issue that 99% of the population will be NL and BM? Where gear and level will play a role such that good geared warrior > average NL > average warrior but the difference isn’t as huge as now?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I think warriors are balanced right now in terms of damage. Their disadvantage mostly lies in the end game bossing meta. Hero / Dark Knight have a very balanced tradeoff between strong multitarget DPS and average single target DPS. Paladin has a very balanced tradeoff between slightly above average DPS on elementally neutral and above average - top DPS on elementally weak (though it is a problem when they face something that resists everything, since then they kind of turn worthless).

    But the problem with paladin is that there is no end game boss that is weak to one of its stronger elements (this may change with Neo Tokyo part 2).

    You want a cleave attacker on horntail because runs with 1 cleave attacker are faster than runs with only single target attackers. But you might have a harder time finding a run as a cleave attacker because there is only 1 efficient cleave attacker spot (compared to 4 efficient range attacker spots).

    Other than for paladin, the balance is very good - and paladins will probably be more viable after the introduction of Neo Tokyo part 2.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  5. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Bossing meta wise, its leaning alot more towards single-target damage, and thus warriors in general are getting left out.

    For Pink Bean, the final boss that favors high single-target DPM rather den cleave. While I do not know the details of PB that much, I think MrPresident has explained it above.
    - For Paladin, their case is unique. Despite having a class identity of high melee single target DPM. PB has elemental resistance that really pulls Paladin's damage down. PB's elemental resistance should be modified to allow Paladin's high DPM to be viable.
    - If ranged attackers washed to high HP, they can take every hit from PB, except damage reflect. This pretty much makes warriors lose their high HP advantage.
    - AloriaX mentioned that Big Bang kills ranged attackers if they did not wash till 12k HP, but can be dodged. The comfort should be removed for ranged attackers => unless you have warrior-like HP, you should be killed no matter what. Consider changing it to a physical 30k damage. Warriors will survive with Achilies & power guard, shadower can smokescreen to dodge, well for bucc, unforunately I can't think of any right now. Of course this is NOT the only solution, its just a food for thought. And also, not required when there's a cleaving-favored boss that has same difficulty and rewards as PB.

    I'm unable to comment on HT as I'm not strong enough to participate it yet.

    To go about this, we don't need to modify warrior classes - they are pretty balanced right now, and changing them can destroy class identity, and make them too OP. But rather, we need new bossing contents that favors cleave compared to single target.
    Maybe a closer look at chaos zakum? Consider lower the HP of body, but when the body receives a certain amount of damage, it will re-grow at least 4 arms, which makes body invulnerable until arms are destroyed. This will favor cleave alot more, and makes single target less desired - the opposite of PB.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I guess I understand that they are balanced now, but as people claimed: hypothetically if hp wash gets taken out, as soon as that happens everyone will be playing BM and NL that no one will be touching warriors.

    If that is what will happen, can there be balance changes to take them back into viability?

    One thing I can think of is GMS heroes gets this toggle skill that makes their damage go up by like 20% but makes all of their skills single target, would that be something that can put heroes forward in terms of the bossing meta?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    You are right.
    This is some of my point on my thread.
    If hp was not a thing in the game, I doubt anyone will be bother to play warrior.
    Being a warrior now days it's too difficult, in terms of funding even a funded hero can't beat low - decent founded NL or Archer.
    Once I compared it on 300m gear NL VS 1.5b to 2b funded hero.
    NL had more DPM than the hero.
    (They both had Si and se mw20 and same level range,intact NL was lower lvl)
    In my opinion this is broken and should be change, but in my thread when I wrote it I got so many haters comments that I forgot we are talking about mushroom game.

    So yea I support your opinion, warriors should be buffed specially on single attack terms and focus on hero's since they have nothing to offer beside DPM ( not like DK that they can buff Hb).
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  8. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    In theory this is a good idea, but you will destroy paladin's class identity, and may even replace paladins for bosses that favors single-target damage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    As far as I can tell, there are some cleaving segments in NT part 2, and of course a lot of mobile bosses, so cleaving will be relevant there at least.

    How relevant will NT part 2 be in the first place, though, is still the question...
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Totally have no idea about NT part two,
    but we need a boss that is the opposite of pink bean, one with similar difficulty & reward, but favors cleave over single-target DPM
     
  11. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Being a NL/Archer now days it's too difficult, in terms of funding even a funded NL/Archer can't beat low - decent funded Warrior on 2 or more targets.
    Once I compared it on 300m gear Hero VS 1.5b to 2b funded NL.
    Hero had more DPM than the NL.
    (They both had Si and se mw20 and same level range, infact Hero was lower lvl)
    In my opinion this is broken and should be change, but in my thread when I wrote it I got so many haters comments that I forgot we are talking about mushroom game.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  12. imsteven
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    imsteven Mushmom

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    Could you possibly list out what 300m gear NL along with the 1.5b to 2b funded hero you are referring to please? I am very interested. Also, NLs cannot cleave like heroes can as Akash mentioned above.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Warriors are still relevant as of now, but slowly you will see more and more 30k HP ranges being completed.
    When that happens, even DKs will be out of job in a PB run.
    There will then no advantage of a cleave over a range in the bosses currently, unless there is an absolute clear cleave advantageous boss coming in NT part 2.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  14. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    Haha wow you are so funny guy ! Uwu.

    Jokes aside,
    I think avenger should be buff too.
    The damage it produces it's just too low .
    The hero had 136 Claymore and good stuff too.
    NL had 70att craven and decent pirate set
    NL had 2m ish DPM more
     
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Being a Beginner now days it's too difficult, in terms of funding even a funded Beginner can't beat low - decent funded Buccaneer on 1 or more targets.
    Once I compared it on 300m gear Buccanneer VS 1.5b to 2b funded Beginner.
    Buccaneer had more DPM than the Beginner.
    (They both had Si and se mw20 and same level range, infact Buccaneer was lower lvl)
    In my opinion this is broken and should be change, but in my thread when I wrote it I got so many haters comments that I forgot we are talking about mushroom game.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    You are so pathetic haha.
    In your opinion warriors just useless and all in trying to say is this is not how the game should work. Range attackers being to much common for a reason
    The reason is warriors becoming more and more not relevant because it's outta balanced
    Go ahead quote me and make fun of this.
    For real sometimes I feel like I get back to this nostalgic game but people never grew up.
    Man up and give me a break.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    I got banned from posting on forums for “shitposting” but I’m glad that equal enforcement of rules isn’t a thing. Stay woke.

    The easier HP washing becomes the less viability in general warriors have tbh.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
  18. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Clearly what this game needs is Soul Splitter so Warriors can cleave everything non-stationary

    Or just more 2 target bosses

    Evil Blu and Evil Eiji release when

    In all seriousness though, outside of NT part 2 and maybe Chaos Zakum/HT, are there even any bosses left that can be feasibly implemented on a v62 server, even ignoring all other issues like balance or whatnot?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  19. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I don’t think because Paladin has a single target ability then no other warrior can have it too. Why not let both do around the same damage, players can play either class based on what they want and both be able to be recruited into boss runs?

    maybe I am an idealist but all classes should be viable for late name, no one want to play a class that is only good for ht and bad at pb and vice versa. Sure NL will have more damage single target, hero will have more damage cleaving, but neither should far far out damage the other. Also as most bosses are single target, giving classes single target ability to make all classes viable isn’t a bad thing. Why have a game that have a dead class that no one want to play right?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    If that's what you understood from my post, the problem here isn't a difference of opinion but a lack of comprehension.

    --

    Not to derail this thread any further, I agree with OP that in the hypothetical situation where everybody has easy access to tanky ranged characters, we will run into the problem of everybody choosing the optimal damage dealer. One of the main benefits of choosing a warrior class is that it's an entry-level class that can boss effectively early on with little upfront investment. They have easy access to efficient grinding early, mid, and late game and do really well in early expeditions like Zakum. The bigger problem is that excessive leeching eliminated the hurdles for ranged classes and their slower grinding pace for the first 150+ levels. If HP washing were to be made simpler, leeching would also have to be addressed so as to not give ranged classes such an easy route to end-game content.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3

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