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Horntail’s Left Head Attack: A Necessary Change for Bishop Survival

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Diamondback, Sep 30, 2024.

Should Horntail's Left Head attack be changed from physical to magical to improve the survivability?

  1. Yes – Bishops need this change for fair survival in Horntail.

  2. Yes, but with some modifications – I agree with the change, but would suggest tweaking other aspects

  3. I’m undecided – I need more information or discussion before forming an opinion.

  4. No – The current mechanics are fine, and no change is needed.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Zakum

    1,665
    528
    465
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    7:19 AM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    out of curiosity, why are you doing LH last if you know you dont have enough hp to tank a perfect frame?
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Quintarius
    Online

    Quintarius Chronos

    81
    53
    103
    Nov 22, 2017
    Male
    7:19 AM
    Valtarius
    Dark Knight
    200
    Vengeance
    in both clips 1 and 2 you have mg before the fat dp animation appears. wings do around 4k unbuffed and 11k buffed. with mg and invincible you can jump into wings to get touch damage so you get iframes for when left head is about to cast its magic attack. you had plenty of time to do this in both clips
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. CeloRox
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    CeloRox Slime

    23
    7
    30
    Jun 30, 2020
    Male
    10:19 AM
    Paladin, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer, Corsair
    123
    this is a direct solution to your perfect frame problem. Whether or not it’s practical is a whole different story. I think the main issue is that new players that are recently joining the bossing scene are trying to skip steps that every other player who now has characters that are washed went through.

    I personally have a bishop that I started the game with and have done close to 300 HT runs with only 3k HP, with 6mans being most of them. Were the they the fastest or more optimized runs? Most likely not, but the runs cleared. Did I die in some the runs? Of course! It’s part of the game. Players today are already at an INSANE advantage with HP challenges.

    The expectation of having the game change for your needs is unrealistic and selfish. You should be changing your strategy in order to fit the needs of your run.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Abrasion
    Offline

    Abrasion Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    33
    53
    53
    Jun 24, 2021
    Male
    9:19 AM
    Hematoma
    Bishop, Bowmaster
    178
    Beaters
    Can you point me to the line in the original post that says this is specifically for 6-man HT ? Because I cant seem to find it.

    1600 tma is irrelevant if you can control dark wyverns in other ways such as BB + gene. In the case of HT bishoping, I would equate reliability to survivability. But you didn't state in your original reply that you were okay taking a reliable bishop, you stated you wouldn't want to take a bishop with less than 1600 tma, so this entire paragraph of text is a bit contradictory, no ?

    My question wasn't about an attacker being more or less important than a bishop. It was specifically about a 15x NL being considered "optimized" compared to lets say, a 17x+ attacker who can use an apple as well. Regardless, if you're considering bishop more important than an attacker (which is the only thing I agree with from your reply), the survivability of the bishop should be the most important factor in determining which bishops to take to HT, not 1600+ tma. (Also bishops can apple too in case you forgot)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  5. JKNS
    Offline

    JKNS Selkie Jr.

    220
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    Jan 27, 2016
    9:19 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    You have time definitely to rebuff MG in clip 1. Also, you let the Wing power-up buff linger: that's entirely on you. Clip 2 is dicier, but you got the buff off in time: it's definitely possible.

    Also, like it's been mentioned above: if you aren't able to live the combo, why are you starting RH first? I do not expect everyone who runs HT to know every detail about the boss, but we've got to be better about knowing why we do what we do.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. OP
    OP
    Diamondback
    Online

    Diamondback Master Chronos

    99
    14
    101
    Jul 16, 2024
    4:19 PM
    I'm going to set aside suggestions like "Jump Wings" because, realistically, they aren’t practical solutions, especially as a Sed Bishop who often ends up in a random spot due to the need to keep the Sed target alive. Likewise, keeping Wyverns alive in today’s runs just doesn’t work. The first clears had to adapt, and they likely didn’t even have enough TMA to consistently kill Wyverns back then, but we’re now several years past that point.

    CeloRoxCeloRox, this issue no longer affects me personally, as I’ve finally surpassed the HP threshold, so I'm no longer at risk. However, convincing other Bishops to give it a try is difficult when their survivability comes down to RNG. Even if you focus on killing the Left Head first, weapon cancels can still leave you facing the same dilemma.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. HV
    Offline

    HV Skelegon

    1,089
    941
    413
    Aug 1, 2015
    Female
    Suwon, Korea
    11:19 PM
    Verdict
    Bishop
    200
    Prism
    Hope you don't misunderstand my opinion. I'm side of 'skill issue' and also do know that experience/skills can cover it, difference between JKJB and myself is nothing but 'it shouldn't be harsh like that', that's all.
     
  8. OP
    OP
    Diamondback
    Online

    Diamondback Master Chronos

    99
    14
    101
    Jul 16, 2024
    4:19 PM
    How much more should i spamm MG in Clip 1? Thank you for reiterating what I just mentioned above Clip 2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
  9. HV
    Offline

    HV Skelegon

    1,089
    941
    413
    Aug 1, 2015
    Female
    Suwon, Korea
    11:19 PM
    Verdict
    Bishop
    200
    Prism
    Also, because i'm communist sometimes in game, also because I don't mind getting 15x NLs in my 6man run as long as they can do not bad DPM, I wish to strike it out, that standard for bsp shouldn't be that too high (1600 TMA, 6k+ HP), just for others QoL and stability. That's why I'm agreeing on OPs suggestion - to lower bsps standard for resonable stability in HT, being certain classes shouldn't be reason of getting discrimination. honestly, even with lowered standard, bsp players stress is already way more than attackers, thanks for there's no res for him/herself.

    Otherwise, I wouldn't mind if we go fair - ask bsps 6m+ vote and 3~10b gearing with 200ish level just to attend 1pty HT run. now, ask attackers same. We all know well - we won't.

    I'd ask you back - why only 1 class should be mega carry spec just to attend a contents while others easily get access for it? that's my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Quintarius
    Online

    Quintarius Chronos

    81
    53
    103
    Nov 22, 2017
    Male
    7:19 AM
    Valtarius
    Dark Knight
    200
    Vengeance
    in clip one you mged before the dp even took place once you see the animation you have 75% of the entire map to jump into wings before dp even takes place
    upload_2024-9-30_20-58-8.png =
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. JKNS
    Offline

    JKNS Selkie Jr.

    220
    78
    215
    Jan 27, 2016
    9:19 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    We are in the same camp as it regards to Challenge HP Bishops, but only up to a reasonable number (full perfect frame protection would invalidate washing except to the extremes on Mages). Bishops that can HP Wash, though, I'm not.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. JKNS
    Offline

    JKNS Selkie Jr.

    220
    78
    215
    Jan 27, 2016
    9:19 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    You're spamming before the animation even finishes. The attack starts after the DP ends.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. CeloRox
    Offline

    CeloRox Slime

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    Jun 30, 2020
    Male
    10:19 AM
    Paladin, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer, Corsair
    123
    I truly disagree with "survivability comes down to RNG". There are multiple different people on the post showing you solutions (wing touch, wyvern shield, even tanking the rock in the left or right corner) but you keep on ignoring them because it doesn't fit your agenda of wanting the change to happen. You asked for solutions and they were given.

    If the host of your run doesn't understand how to control the damage being put on the part of the boss that are going to make the run fail, thats a problem in itself. The host can simply ask players to avoid mid head and cross over to right when cancels are up. And if both are then you also have the option of hitting wings. I can guarantee you that you can ABSOLUTELY make sure the LH goes down before any dispel happens
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  14. Raya
    Offline

    Raya Mano

    12
    2
    25
    Sep 3, 2020
    10:19 AM
    Palms
    Dark Knight
    simple solution, just attack all heads all time ezpz
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  15. HV
    Offline

    HV Skelegon

    1,089
    941
    413
    Aug 1, 2015
    Female
    Suwon, Korea
    11:19 PM
    Verdict
    Bishop
    200
    Prism
    It has risk of triple dark wyverns, can't recommend on unskilled bsps + need to deliver HS on both side while dealing with 9x wyvern summons from every heads.

    I'd magically dc if it happens w/o my agreement.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. OP
    OP
    Diamondback
    Online

    Diamondback Master Chronos

    99
    14
    101
    Jul 16, 2024
    4:19 PM
    It seems you’ve put some thought into this, but it's important to recognize that this is a perfect frame situation. I’m not sure I understand your point—there’s really no counterplay, even with spamming MG. Can you clarify what you mean?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. JKNS
    Offline

    JKNS Selkie Jr.

    220
    78
    215
    Jan 27, 2016
    9:19 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    You have time to rebuff MG, but you're spamming throughout the Dispel before it resolves, which cuts your chances of reacting in time because you're mid-animation. If you wait for the resolution, you have a (pretty generous) window to get a buff in: whether it's Invincible or Magic Guard, there is enough time to get to living. The Left Head doesn't start its attack until after the resolution of the DP as well. Your second clip is the one where the window between Dispel and rebuffing is tighter, but you manage it in worse conditions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  18. HV
    Offline

    HV Skelegon

    1,089
    941
    413
    Aug 1, 2015
    Female
    Suwon, Korea
    11:19 PM
    Verdict
    Bishop
    200
    Prism
    To be fair, reason why you died on clip #1 was you were lazy for DH'ing wings watk buff, still can't survive if you have less than 6k. that's why 6k is my resonable marginal line.

    For myself, surprisingly, wings watk/matk buff has higher priority on DH than arms wdef/mdef. personally, priority is : Wings watk >> Wings matk > RA mdef > LA wdef, because i'm selfish, it's arranged with 'what bothers me most' not others.

    I'd do agree that under 6k should have proper access to get 6k (tbh, way more like 5.5k) but clip #1 just shows you weren't DH caring wings watk buff, which is skill issue imo.

    Also, you had time to rb in clip #1 aswell. Won't deny you won't even have time for MG if situation goes terrible, but clip #1 is 'failure from skill issue' imo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 5
  19. OP
    OP
    Diamondback
    Online

    Diamondback Master Chronos

    99
    14
    101
    Jul 16, 2024
    4:19 PM
    That's exactly what I mentioned above in the GIF, isn't it? It seems like many people are reiterating points I’ve already made. Is this actually helping the discussion, or is it just highlighting the need for a solution even more?

    So your solution is to study the animation, practice MG, and hope to hit the perfect millisecond instead of just spamming MG while being a Sed Bishop? I appreciate your input, but while that might work in theory, I doubt it will be a reliable solution in the long run. The issue of getting perfect framed remains unresolved, even with a potential 10% reduction in odds. Won't it just be more frustrating to die from it regardless?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
  20. JKNS
    Offline

    JKNS Selkie Jr.

    220
    78
    215
    Jan 27, 2016
    9:19 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    Yes, you should study animation timings as a Bishop: that's part of the skill. We are talking about controllable aspects of survival, and that is one that is easily fixed if you're even vaguely familiar with what Dispels look like.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1

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