Horntail’s Left Head Attack: A Necessary Change for Bishop Survival

I disagree but i'm a bishop with 7.8k hp atm. This might have been a good suggestion 6 months - 1 year ago when it seemed like it was impossible to find bishops to HT. However, in the last few months i'm seeing bishop slots in both 6 and 12 man runs getting filled way before attackers.

Bishop in HT is one of the most engaging and rewarding bossing experiences in the game and part of that is the perfect frame threat and dp from darks. I feel there should be a difference between skele bishops and HT bishops as an unwashed skele bishop is already so powerful in the server in terms of leveling, making money, being an hs mule for grinding and bossing. Wouldn't this just encourage people to bring there under leved bishop mules into ht as backups or to sell afk htp.

Also, there is counter play to perfect frame. 1) run 12 mans where there are 2 bishops, lower change of both getting perfect framed 2) Just do left head first, with a single target comp lh should go down before mh dp. 3) Not practical but you could just jump into wings as you see the DP animation and get iframes (this is risky and i've never done it but still possible).

 

The thing is that nowadays most runs are wanting to start from right head first. If I was a bishop without hp to survive the perfect frame, I would only join ht if my party started on the left side. Bishops are the HT party leaders, not attackers zzzz

 

If it’s that big of an issue, then start LH first and ask your attackers to not push as hard on MH to minimize the risk of DP before LH death, balancing that damage to Wing instead. It’s also not usually just the instant combo of Dispel + Icicle slam that gets Bishops killed, it’s not properly repotting to a safe number among other small risk management things that are actually in your control (even for 7k+ HP Bishops). It’s just the easy fallback excuse to “I couldn’t do anything about it” when, in most cases, you could have manual potted during that Dispel or introduced other counterplay (finding a source of iframes). I would argue that a 4k HP Bishop already has a “fair and balanced” chance of living just about everything reasonable in HT: a synchronized two part or three part combo being the only things that can kill you seems like survival is mostly within your control to me.

 

This will be the generic response whenever this is brought up, hyper washed bishops will tell you to wash more, or skill issue as a challenges bish.

Personally I think while this might not be the route to take I agree challenged bishops should have gotten more HP, atleast so at 180+ or some high threshold its possible to get the minimum HP for a perfect frame. Something should be adjusted. Thats coming from someone with a hyper washed bishop, who realistically would never bring a hp challenges bishop into a 6 man run, even if I was starting LH first. One bishop is not worth the risk of failing the run to rng, regardless of what snobby players have to say about the topic.

 

I wouldn't want to take a bishop with less than 1600 tma tbh.
6 man HT is an optimization, and it's okay for people to have standards.

That being said, as others have pointed out already, the counter play to avoid perfect frame dp/ice attack is to just take down left head after leg/tail before DP is in range.

 

technology lost to the ages

 

what about wyvern shields? wouldn’t that be a counter play?

 

my bishop friends and i do fewly run ht.
this is because ht is super tired, super long time, bad income, and bad xp for a bishop.
if we join, we want 12 or 18 man ht because it is faster.

if you love ht, you are a special bishop!
so why not wash more?

 

imo 6man or below ht for bishop is not too bad exp source. only getting exp in skele, 5-6 is quite boring.

 

As who washed ~8k+ and have 1600+ TMA on 2 bsps, I totally agree on this OPs suggestion, not for myself, but for HP challenged bsps.

Of course, some may say 'wash harder', some may say '1hit darks and it gonna be better', some even might say 'skill issue' and I do agree on those improvement makes you to viable low HP / low TMA but still doable 6man HT in resonable stability.

BUT, I also recall that to get such skills / tricks / experiences, I needed more than an year of experience with at least 500+ runs (yes, I'm slow learner), and I DO NOT think every newcomer bsps should suffer like we did in many ways, like washing, experience, etcs.

It was disappointing that challenge gave mages too little HP, which can't even counter perf-frame with 100% HP from LH shards so still it's considered as 'washing is necessary for bsps if you want to do 6man HT', while other classes 6man HT hurdle became resonable with challenge. Don't we all enjoy sweet 80~100% exp on 15x alts whenever it's possible? I see it everytimes from so-called 'pro players'.

'6k+ HP and 1600+ TMA or gtfo, you aren't qualified even though I attend with 15x NL for sweet exp/split' is what I really wish to be against, I do believe that challenge bsps should have proper access on 6man HT, when they wish to attend and attempt.


Old players suffered for washing/practicing so fellowers should suffer too, seems..... bad idea.

I do agree that 6man (or even less) is all about optimization. just...we have different definition about term 'optimization'. that term shouldn't be used to banish players, that's what I believe.

Spoiler: My honest opinion

Please let me retire from bsping in HT, I want new generation replacing me and us eventually.

 

I actually feel sad whenever I see so-called pro players donno difference of pros/cons of strategies and classes but think '1bsp 1se 4NL = only way and best way because that's all I know'.

 

Personally, i felt for the "perfect frame" for few runs before which is ashamed yes as bishop have the big role of support and enabling other members...not to mention the loss of resurrection skills, but i don't believe it should be required to adjust for now as there are other ways to work around this kind of situation to at least mitigate the risk of perfect frame such as:

1. Wash More (Only for Washing Bishops)
Like every washed HT bs runners suggest, just keep washing until you reach the threshold to survive the perfect frame, it might take some time but eventually you will reach it... Unfortunately for hp challenge bishops this method is inapplicable, which you gotta look for other methods.

2. Adjust the strategy to deal with the bishop threat first
Since left heads is a big threat for the bishop, it's best to adjust the strategy to take down left head first. (which some host will take note for the bishops HP to adjust the strategy to be more viable for the overall run) So that way the bishops will have an easier time later on without worrying taking too much damage after DP

3. 12 Man "Safety Net"
Let say in some cases you still fall for the "perfect frame", in 12 Man Run the team gonna adapt to such scenario to overcome the issue and have buccaneers ready to time leap for resurrection skills as soon it's ready to provide as "Safety Net". Usually after that it's up to you to focus on survivability and try not to die afterwards...easier said than done yes, but i would say it's a wake up slap to tell you to focus survive more XD

But overall, i think these the strategy i could think of to help survive the risk of "perfect frame" which i believe the changes would be unnecessary as i would take it as a challenge to face the "Perfect Frame". As for the 6 man HT run, i don't experience the 6 Man Yet so i couldn't give much opinion for that if "Perfect Frame" happens lol.

 

The real issues are humans mind seeking for efficiency and profit, and huge difference between attackers death and bsps death, also huge difference on requirement to attend same contents between classes.

1. wash more
Hitting 6k+ (so-called safety zone) gets decided by 'when you started wash', and 6k itself requires millions nx. I don't think it's fair to ask bsp player only to endure those vast voting period while other classes are OK to attend 6man immediately once they hit 170 w/ challenge, w/o single washing, as long as DPM is okay.

2. Adjust the strategy
As someone said and I agreed, 6man is all about optimization thanks for lacking manpower than 10~12mans. In general, RH strat performs better DPM output from attackers and in such 4~6man run, asking LH first itself drags whole team, and no any hosts/attackers would love to do just for sake of bsp. They'll rather find another bsp who can cover RH first strat, and that's how stuffs go on, sadly.

3. Just do 2bsp comp run
again, human mind issue. don't we all love to maximize profits? If bsp is really unstable but need to get him for 6man, realistic solution is 'muling another bsp for backup res/bsp' and this doesn't happen a lot, unless that muler is very generous, doesn't hesitate to bother him/herself multiclienting + spending hundreds of pots just for insurance. Also, asking this favor itself would be not welcomed again.

That's why I'm so side of 'challenge HP bsps should be able to tank any 1 hit from HT after getting DP'ed, with full HP - of course, with T10 rings, ephe or somewhat requires effort on character, not vanila HP challenge HP'. I wouldn't expand this logic onto PB or Auf, but HT isn't endgame boss which only 1% players were able to access, like 2016~2017 ML days.

We should set standard as 'HP challenge bsps', not millions-nx spent heavy washed bsps. My opinion for this won't be changed, ever.

(alternative solution could be - buff HP challenge on mage - which I'd love to see aswell)

 

tbh i think there's been a bit of a disconnect in the past year or so where a lot of rising squads copy high end squads without fully understanding why they're doing things a certain way. when i first started running ht, starting lh was meta and incredibly common, but as people started to bring their hyperwashed bishops online, they started optimizing and moving to rh first. now, new players copy that strat without bothering to protect their underwashed bishops. back when i first started, it was rare to find a bishop with more than 6k hp, and it was pretty normal to be running with 4k hp bishops, and nobody thought it was an issue since you could just do LH first and call it a day.

so it's pretty amusing to see we've almost come full circle. i agree though a lot of people just blindly follow metas without really understanding why something is meta, and it shows. i would be surprised if some hosts nowadays even know all the reasons why people start rh.

 

The topic is of bishop viability specifically in 6-man HT. Most of these problems don't exist in 2-party runs where most challenge players would be recruited to.

1600 tma is relevant because the time it takes to grow your gear to this point is the bigger barrier for entry. Players that have shown the intentionality to spend the time growing and investing their mage gear most likely have taken advantage of washing or remaking. That being said, I consider reliability to be more important than survivability. If you're an experienced bishop player that has a great track record, I don't care about how low your HP is, and that applies to gear as well. If you're a 12k hp/1600 tma bishop but still manage to die often, your HP or gear doesn't matter. On the flip side, if you're a low HP but well geared bishop with lots of experience and understanding of the class, then your achievement of being a reliable bishop carries much more weight and respect. On the topic of gear and experience, more often than not, one is predicated by the other.

Also, the attacker role is less important than the bishop/support role. A 15X NLs can compensate for the level gaps by using high attack pots, and they're replaceable by any other attacker than can dish out the same amount of DPM. Their only responsibility is doing damage and reducing run time, and you can always be resurrected if you die. Bishops have a more critical role, especially in 6-man runs that usually reserve only one spot for the bishop. It might be less important if you're a squad that sells AFK service with multiple bishops on the run.

I'd chalk that up to being a decision making issue. If your host decides it's worth it to risk losing a bishop in order to speed up the run a few minutes, then that's on them. If I'd known one of my bishops were susceptible to getting perfect framed, I personally wouldn't risk it, even on a 12-man run with two bishops.

 

just watching