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Make Bishop Mains 'alright' in Pink Bean

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Vowels, Jan 15, 2022.

  1. Vowels
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    The goal of this thread is to present a challenge to the staff, that of making it acceptable to recruit a Bishop Main for Pink Bean over a Bishop Mule. This is a difficult task, but one that requires attention if every class is meant to deserve a rewarding endgame gameplay.

    Making the problem evident

    [​IMG]

    Any level 150 Bishop Mule can provide as much utility as a Bishop Main, this devalues the class and the differences don’t make Bishop Mains any more desirable. Mini-beans are handled by the Arch-Mages and no one recruits a Bishop for their statues and Pink Bean damage as those are bad. The only thing Bishops do is provide apples for the run and being a resurrection and shield mule.

    The only redeemable quality Bishop Mains had before the patch was being able to do serious damage to the mini-beans, now that has been replaced with the ability to do full damage to Pink Bean as if that meant much to the weakest single target in the game. It’s hard to understand why this was a trade, why was Bishops utility sacrificed for body DPS or why does the last patch-notes propose that Bishops would be broken if they were able to do both. It’s as if the balance decision was thought in a vacuum in which multiclienting doesn't exist when almost every squad was doing it and still does (even more now).

    Bishop body damage is mediocre even with the holy resistance removal and it will never be considered as a distinctive quality as it is simply better to recruit a real damage dealer with a bishop mule.


    Before suggestions, a small pause to develop something:

    Challenging the idea of “should support be a damage dealer”

    The following chart lists the best support classes with their best -non redundant- skills applied to Pink Bean. Which explains the lack of ‘Dispel’ due to the existence of All-Cure Potions and Holy Symbol due to most endgame players being 200 and that Pink Bean isn’t run for EXP.

    I have also decided to rate the damage these classes do during Statues and Pink Bean phases in the following order: Top Tier > Good > Mediocre > Insignificant. DPM close to Night Lord is to be understood as Top Tier and as DPM varies between classes I’m using the categories to indicate significant DPM gaps.

    [​IMG]

    So why I’m doing this? I’m looking to challenge the idea that supports shouldn’t be able to do significant damage. Two of the best supports in this game, Buccaneer and Marksman, already do top tier damage. So there's no reason for being afraid of letting Bishops to be at least ‘alright’ in the final boss of the game. Yea just ‘alright’ because It would be madness to request for them to do as much damage as single target classes or also it wouldn’t be appropriate to overlook how Bishops succeed in leeching and farming, though It could be argued that these are mostly mules that keep mage balance hostage but that's another controversial topic.

    Anyway, my point here is that supports can do top tier damage and I’d like for Bishops to be "ok, decent, alright" in pink bean if possible. Dark Knights deserve some love as well but they'll need their own thread with their own suggestions as I'm unaware of what could make their class feel more rewarding to play.

    So, what to do SUGGESTIONS


    Make Bishops able to genesis mini-beans again and I would suggest to allow Bishops to keep doing full damage on Pink Bean. Compared to a naked mule, this will make magic relevant in dealing with mini-beans, the proposed change keeps statues damage as insignificant and body damage as mediocre. I would say this is enough to keep the class ‘alright’. Bishops will keep getting muled but at least it’s state won’t be as embarrassing as it is now.

    So how to move from 'alright' to 'good'. I incentivize looking for creative ways of making the supportive skills more challenging or looking for ways of making bishop mules less desirable. Active gameplay needs to be rewarded with survival, the current dispels are a joke and what is needed is perhaps a mechanic that rewards active gameplay by dodging attacks while dispel happens, real players would dodge while mules would be static and take the hit. Of course nothing would work perfectly but it would be greatly appreciated as it would improve the Bishop experience.


    what NOT to do, DOOOOOOOONT

    I must admit I had these ideas before when I was feeling upset about the state of Bishops but further thought they are useless

    · DON’T: Restricting multiclient or making it a bannable offense

    This doesn’t accomplish the goal of making Bishop gameplay rewarding in Pink Bean. Restrictions are lame and as a server we are deep into multiclienting. I’m not looking to make everyone obligated to play in certain ways, this just doesn’t feel right and it’s better if the ‘problem’ is addressed with actual gameplay and mechanics changes.

    · DON’T: Increase the minimum level requirement

    Let’s be real, due how this game is, almost every endgame player has at least one high level bishop (if not 200 already) from the times they leeched their attackers, sold leech or farmed. This kind of restriction would do absolutely nothing for Bishop Mains and I would say that it would even be worse.


    Ending

    Please consider accepting my suggestions, keep the thread in topic, leave your input. Agree, partially agree or disagree but try to say why. Thanks​
     
    • Agree x 20
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  2. lilypad21
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    lilypad21 Blue Snail

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    I would think having a hard restriction and have only a maximum of 5 Bishops allowed to sign up. Im still in favor of raising the level requirement because of all the other classes that are being muled currently. I’ve witnessed a fair share of runs where they would have failed if it weren’t for those low level mules.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Soniii
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    Soniii Mixed Golem

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    i agree
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  4. OP
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    yea the min. level requirement doesn't make sense for the battle in general as there's no reason for levels 150~17x to participate other than being muled. However this would only address DRK and Bucc and the restriction of only 5 bishops would still allow for bishop mules. Regarding mules it's complicated to go against the servers culture as it's been demonstrated over the years to be an impossible battle, it would upset a significant amount of players which isn't something I'm trying to do, as antagonizing too hard would lead my suggestions to nothing. I'm just trying to find a solution centered around gameplay or mechanics rather than restrictions. Thanks for the input!
     
  5. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    yea, there's little reason to main a bishop over a mage right now.
    LF>1 chance conversion from bishop to FP pls
     
  6. Kiaraaa
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    Kiaraaa Chronos

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    100% agree with Gia :pinkbean: I don't wanna be more of a MULE in PB its depressing sadge :(
     
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  7. Syrinz
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    Syrinz Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    agree w/ TS. Let us gen the mini beans againnn ;w;
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  8. Randuwu
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    Randuwu Slime

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    #justiceforbishops
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Vystical
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    Vystical Orange Mushroom

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    Would lowering the mini bean resistances from Holy Immune to like Holy Resistant (depending on %) be a big enough change to make Bishops relevant again?

    Archmages are always relevant and are taken anyways. So I don't think this adjustment for bishops would harm archmage viability significantly either. They would just have more time to focus on DPS-ing while Bishop mains have to Gene (maybe a few more times) to clear the beans together.
     
  10. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Soon bishops will be expected to front either the entire apple cost or provide multiple attackers or multiple bishops and party management duties to be allowed to participate in content. At least squads are almost all NLs, so alchemist will make it a bit cheaper.

    Joking aside, even using prepatch mini beans, mini bean utility alone is not enough to justify a bishop player back then, let alone currently. Unless a squad is near the sign limit and specifically requires the role compression that a "full power" bishop would provide, a naked 150 bishop in the timeout corner plus an archmage (read: fp) does way more for the squad.

    Slip 'n slide aggro is perhaps the closest we've been to most squads *requiring* all 30 signs to clear, which leads one to believe that means bishop players are required, but even if the squad needs the bishop, it is not for damage in the slightest.

    No recent bishop numbers have been shown, but I believe statue damage is trivial, and even body damage with holy resistance removed is DK-level garbage (probably even lower, but I'm not sure). At least DK is required to push its button every couple minutes to slightly justify running with a dk main. A bishop presses it's shield button once or twice at the end of stage 4/5, and for minor convenience otherwise. A bishop also presses a 2nd button a few times during the run when players die, but otherwise what else is there for a bishop to do that can't be done just as effectively as buffing and forgetting about the character for 10 minutes? The only options as I see then are to either 1) make the fight require the attention of a bishop's kit, or 2) have bishop meaningfully contribute to the lowering of the hp bar. The two are somewhat related but option 1 is raising the support value while also raising the support difficulty, while option 2 is raising the dpm damage directly to a level where an Uber funded bishop main can at least consider using their own attack pots instead of feeding the mouths and egos of the Night Lords.

    On the other side of this though, how much dpm does a bishop need to warrant being "wanted"? I ask this because I say that there's a certain level of dpm gap that is acceptable, where you can have a runner not specifically for highest dpm, but for their extra utility skills or even for personal qualities such as good communication, lack of death, team player, etc. However, I believe the bar for comparison is set (for better or worse) by NL at the top of dpm/cost/ease of use charts. This means that classes without raw damage like bishop, dk, hero, shad look even worse by comparison as they have to compete with them in some way for the slot. Bishop not being *too* strong makes sense thematically and in balance, but even the absolute best bishops hardly compare to dks and shads, let alone nls. It might be alright for a bishop to be half a DK for example, but if I recall, it'd take ~5 untrues to equal one standard issue NL in damage alone. The boss fight has to be balanced around the top tier outputting classes, after all.

    Are bishops simply too weak? Are the bars set too high by other classes? Or perhaps it is a combination of both?
     
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  11. lilypad21
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    lilypad21 Blue Snail

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    This would bring a decision for a person to bring 2 high level characters, 1 being muled, or having joining 2 separate PB runs on one character each. I’m not saying muling shouldn’t be a thing, but people that are gonna mule should be punished because of how easy it is. Having a second character afk in a corner for the benefits of being a seduce, time leap, resurrection, hyper body mule is big for little to no effort. When I mean punished, I’m not just talking about the level requirement, something along the lines of implementing some kind of maneuver where mules on the left side get knocked to the right or any other creative ways. Not everyone should be able to mule PB, only those who can actually multitask at a greater level in my opinion.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    No, Bishops can already do a bit more than half a genesis with a charged big bang, making genesis hit half would only be useful for the area it covers. Elemental resistance and immunity are supposed to be mechanics balanced with elemental weakness, but when the game only throws you the first two in the most relevant content it sucks. I believe the suggestion of making genesis do full damage to mini-beans is pretty conservative considering the state of the class in every other aspect of the battle.

    I share your idea regarding Arch Mages, I play one and honestly I enjoyed it more when I spent less time casting meteor and more time DPS the bean, it was pretty fun because Arch Mage had the potential of doing as much or more damage than Night Lords in body but now the importance of Arch Mage is centered once again in the ult which isn't exciting news
     
  13. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This would only give an advantage to people who play on two computers over one.
     
  14. shck
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    shck Timer Retired Staff

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    This needs to stop being used as a point of discussion when multi-client related suggestions/ideas are being brought up. One too many promising suggestions has been thrown out of the window because of this. And it's not like we haven't had something similar, though quickly undone, implemented before:

    upload_2022-1-16_12-7-28.png
    It may be seen as regressive thinking, but re-looking into previously discussed ideas isn't always a bad thing.


    If we're unable to balance these top tier classes from a game perspective, we balance them by promoting skillful game play. The number of experienced top tier class players on seasoned runs dying to untimely DRs is still pretty high. Not to mention the number of them taking at least 1 DR hit before they stop hitting.

    Now, to the topic of this post, regarding making active bishops more rewarding to runs, I think of this:
    upload_2022-1-16_12-39-43.png
    Upon summoning, such buffs apply on both the pink bean and minibeans. That way, bishops have to dispel PB for attackers to deal damage to PB while also having to dispel minibeans for AMs to clear those pesky little things before they become a hindrance to the squad. And we could even get fancy and add a W.ATT/M.ATT buff to PB so if left un-dispelled the PB has boosted skills that could potentially wipe the squad. Of course, this would work better only if PB doesn't DR right after summoning minibeans 9/10 times.
     
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  15. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    make bean dispel often, 1/1 the entire map, with KBs.
     
  16. OP
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    I'd prefer if we keep the topic about Bishops, I get that multiclienting is the elephant in the room when talking about the balance of some classes but it ultimately works as a distraction because it never goes anywhere. The ramifications are beyond this thread and we would have to get a staff hint to even consider talking about the possibilities but so far I've only seen Kimmy recently saying this, which were the conclusions after the multiclient restriction episode, so I'd propose to circumvent it and talking about solutions that are realistic enough to get a change. And I'm neither defending or retracting it, I'm just ignoring it because whatever my opinion is I think is not realistic to expect a multiclient change.

    What I wanna say is that if we are meant to co-exist with mules in bosses -under staff allowance- then it only make sense to consider the mules existence and their implications for balance decisions! Which is something I criticize about the last patch-notes. Bishop changes were implemented under the assumption that multiclient doesn't even exist.


    I appreciate this suggestion, is interactive gameplay around the dispel skill, It would require some gymnastics to land those dispels mostly on the mini-beans. I guess it just comes to whether this is possible to implement or not.
     
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  17. OP
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    I wanna add some suggestions Khellz commented me on discord, she isn't a forum enjoyer so I'm posting for her. Thanks for reaching out!

    1) Reverting holy immune status on mini-beans and increasing their HP, this would make arch-mages and bishops deal with mini-beans together.

    2) Randomize the mass seduces from right bird for phases 4 and 5
    , this would make it a harder to cheat the seduces with entrance order.
     
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  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    My point is that lilypad's suggestion would quite literally favor two-computer multiclienters over one since they could reposition two simultaneously. My point wasn't made to defend a multiclienting restriction at all.

    Though, I just find it kind of funny that multiclienting is kind of being forced upon in PB due to the spastic balancing going on across the classes. If a punching bag of a boss like PB only requires raw damage throughout the course of its fight, then effective DPS will always be king, and having a wide disparity of DPS between the classes will only cement the meta since anything and everything else can be relegated to the service of mules.
     
  19. halfwaysleet
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    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

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    Easy fix would be making Pink Bean weak against holy (angel ray is trash anyways) and make the left corner less survivable since its where people station their res mules. That way high level bishops with damage would be more sought after versus blood washed res mules.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  20. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I don't think u can make PB weak against holy. This may make paladins too OP.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1

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