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Make PQs Great Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Gurk, Apr 16, 2022.

  1. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    can add some basic rewards which hopefully helps out newbies, but not so much for late gamers
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. MainSan
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    MainSan Mushmom

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    exp = fun?
    There's more to this game than just rushing endgame and scrolling ravens.
    I'm all for buffing PQs to increase participation. But in the end I'm here to play the game in a way that is the most enjoyable for me. I prefer taking the scenic route, and I'm not the only one. Is it that really so hard to understand?

    Also, many (most?) new people come to this server exclusively to experience KPQ/LPQ again (and then, hopefully, get hooked). Adding CPQ
    is just another selling point.

    On another note regarding useless CPQ;
    How about ewarding participants carnival-points which in turn can be used to purchase (untradeable) items that are useful to new players, but that aren't very fun spending your hard-earned mesos on. Such as:
    HP/MP pots, Elixirs, Coke Pills, ACPs, Mysterious Candy, EOS Tower scrolls, Ludi/Omega Warp Capsules, Omok Set. Exclusive Monster Cards. Chairs(?)
    And how about some cosmetic rewards appealing to the old players? Maybe one of those cosmetic account shared NX name-rings, with different tiers like: 10 wins, 30 wins, 100 wins, 500 wins, 1000wins?
    Nothing that is all that gamebreaking, but may yet give exp-less CPQ some merit.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I'm going to be very nitpicky and exclusively reply to this part of your post, sorry for that in advance.OnionSpark

    Without any sort of poll/data to back this up, I feel like it's a very strong statement to make. If you did have data to back this up, my bad!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. MainSan
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    MainSan Mushmom

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    Oh that's alright. I really don't. Purely empirical. OnionSweatie
     
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  5. OP
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I was talking about this elsewhere but I thought I'd post it here as well as it's pertinent to the thread and perhaps adds some more perspective on why I think making PQs relevant is important.

    When most people experience nostalgia for MapleStory, which is of course the #1 reason people play private servers in the first place, what is it that we think they are reminded of and yearn for first and foremost (other than perhaps the music :p)? Probably the social experience and bonds made that came about via PQing, party grinding and bossing. That’s no surprise considering the game is a 2D 2003 MMORPG (doesn't exactly have the most riveting of mechanics). Now obviously bossing is off limits to these new players for quite some time, and party grinding is rather niche (I would venture to even say almost non-existent) pre-4th job, which leaves us with just PQing.

    So let us imagine, or perhaps remember from our own humble beginnings, what the new player experience might be like on Legends currently: hopping off Maple Island and getting your 1st job, probably doing some questing or light grinding to 21, probably encountering difficulty or long wait times getting a KPQ party going and potentially opting to solo grind instead at other nostalgic places like Ant Tunnel, getting your 2nd job, maybe doing some questing and grinding at Ariant to 35, again probably encountering difficulty or long wait times getting a LPQ party going and potentially opting for more solo grinding at teddies and the like, and repeating that experience across the level ranges of EPQ, OPQ/PPQ and MPQ. The leveling is rather slow and a lot of time is spent bouncing back and forth between waiting in relatively empty PQ lobbies and solo grinding.

    Probably sounds like a rather solitary existence and I imagine I probably would have quit by this point had I not joined Legends with some friends. Maybe you were fortunate enough to find a nice guild to join but chances are they probably won’t PQ or grind with you either as they’re doing higher level content; they’re just people you shoot the crap with in guild chat while you’re waiting around in PQs or solo grinding and rarely actually see or do anything with. And then if you haven’t quit by then and have managed the accomplishment of reaching level 86, whether it be via PQing or solo grinding, you might now. The PQ pipeline has been fragmented (PPQing from 86 to 100 is not something I’d wish on my worst enemy) and grinding is also getting incredibly slow and you’re starting to lose any sense of direction or progression. Maybe you make it to 100 but the hellish journey of 100 to 120 still lies before you. Unless you’re a priest, you probably can’t find grinding partners and everyone else seems to just be buying leech in this level range. If you haven’t quit yet, it’s probably because you were lucky enough to have made some good friends along the way.

    Okay, now you’re finally 120 by some miracle. You get your 4th job and beam with a sense of accomplishment; you’ve maybe never made it this far back in GMS. Well, now it’s time to start hellish journey 2.0 from 120 to 135 before you can finally start bossing and regularly interacting with other people in actual content. So one can probably see how difficult it might be for one to keep playing and persevering until they reach the mid game point with such an insulating and unpleasantly grindy experience, and the vast majority of players very likely drop off the face of the earth before they ever get anywhere near this point after failing to scale this huge initial hurdle.

    So what can be done to remedy this new player experience? Well, we can't really sufficiently incentivize people (especially veterans on their new chars) to grind with each other in the early game, not without ridding ourselves of the existence of leech. We can, however, provide certain incentives for PQing that are appealing even to the older player base, e.g. a PQ ring, so as to keep the PQ lobbies bustling with activity for these newer players. Granted, PQing on chars with a sizeable amount of base int may prove troubling and some players may opt to instead create PQ mules for the purpose of realizing these incentives. That's not necessarily a bad thing as it still represents a person actually playing through PQs and has the same effect of populating lobbies for newer players, but it is a bit jank and less than ideal. So what if we had PQs normalize the stats of all chars, i.e. chars with significant amounts of base int would still have a normal attack range for their level while inside a PQ? This way PQs can be enjoyed by both new players and veteran players (with their 400 int remakes) alike without the hassle of a PQ mule proxy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. thsscapi
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    thsscapi Mushmom

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    I would like such a PQ added, yes.
    You immediately labelled this PQ as "useless", then question if anyone wants it :cautious:
    It's a game. Having more optional content in a game is almost never bad. We are all here in ML for different reasons. We shouldn't avoid adding content just because it is pointless to some players.

    If you would indulge me, I would just like to share my experience as proof that what you imagined isn't something unrealistic.
    I discovered and started in ML 4 years ago, seeking nostalgia and the same experience I had in MSSEA. My fondest memories of MSSEA was logging in intending to party grind, but end up seeing a guildie online and chatting for 3 hours before I logged off realising I did zero grinding. I had an awesome guild led by my best friend, with active members, one of which worked as a web developer and actually created a guild website. I only got to lv 80-ish (on multiple characters) in MSSEA, but most of it was enjoyable due to party-grinding with guildies. The social aspect, as Kimmy has said, was everything and pretty much 99% of the nostalgia.

    Unfortunately, my early ML experience went just like you imagined. Almost everything was spot on, except that I went with 100% questing and 0% grinding because grinding puts me to sleep. Predictably, I got to lv 44 as a Cleric (best class to start with, they said) before I gave up and quit.

    I returned last year and got very lucky. I was determined this time and got myself to OPQ levels. With the aforementioned luck, I met a group of friends who started their own guild. This was what I had been looking for, and that kept me motivated and interested enough to get all the way to lv 120. I should also mention it was also easy because I went with F/P Mage, a class I always wanted to try in MSSEA. (I will never have a Bishop despite its popularity because it's not my playstyle.) Having never gotten to lv 120 before, the excitement and freshness (to me) of 4th job kept me playing till today.

    Edit: On hindsight, were it not for meeting and joining the guild, I doubt I would get past lv 80 and consequently still be active now.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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    bump. hoping to see party quests improved for all levels and classes in the next update.
     
  8. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Why would you bump a pq overhaul thread when a pq overhaul has already been confirmed? :')
     
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  9. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    GurkGurk Great post identifying the problem with the PQ exp. I definitely felt that something was lacking with the level climb and you nailed it. A few things I would like to say:

    - If they increase the exp rewards of the PQs, then I don't think they should buff the stats of the items gained through those PQs. I do agree with reduction of runs needed to acquire the PQ items to match the increased exp though.
    - Instead of a Mysterious coin pouch, they could add a PQ point system that you can use to exchange for rewards. The anniversary points seems to have encouraged players to party up with others vs grinding solo.
    - LPQ's Stage 8 (box room) needs to be removed or heavily eased up to reduce the amount of combinations that teams need to do. I never understood the obsession with keeping that part of the PQ by server owners. It's not enjoyable.
    - MPQ needs to have more generous exp reward so that people in that level range are more willing to do the PQ and players can meet each other.
    - I think that PPQ needs an overhaul. Increase the level requirement so that it's possible to increase exp gains but make it not interfere with OPQ/MPQ population.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  10. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I agree with most things but I disagree with first and third points.
    If you only buff PQ exp it won't be enough, because grinding would be still better with gachapons tickets. Ppl need to have a chance to make mesos while PQing, because normally the money gain is terrible.
    And about LPQ stage 8, I know ppl that like it (myself included), but the problem I see is that if you take too long to finish, it makes LPQ even worse than it already is. But if you just buff the LPQ reward, I think problem will be solved. Removing this stage would be too custom.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  11. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Even if you buff Slime Shoe/LPQ Glasses stats, you still wouldn't be making more money than before. You should simply tell that to the OP, Gurk, that meso gains should be increased.

    On the other big server, Stage 8 was always a big deterrent for doing the PQ since it caused the PQ completion time to greatly vary. Buffing the LPQ reward would make it worthwhile to heavily endure the PQ but once players get the glasses, assuming they don't want to attempt getting another pair of glasses to scroll, they'd bail to grind solo or move immediately to EPQ. Removing the Stage might be too custom (probably would be the best change for me, haha) but how about removing Box #9 to reduce the amount of combinations needed to completion from 126 -> 56? The PQ's Stage would still be intact with 8 boxes (vs 9) and frustrations with the PQ would be elevated greatly and consistency would be gained. What do you think?
     
  12. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    But I don't agree with OP because I think we shouldn't buff the PQ items aswell. If you do that, you will end up bounding ppl to PQ and I hate this idea. Ppl must have options to choose between grinding/pqing/questing, doing whatever fits on their gameplay. If you buff PQ items, everyone will be on the feeling like "if I skip PQ I'll lose good items", or they will even kill themselves til they get the item they want which is also not healthy.
    I believe we should buff PQ money mostly, and we could also buff the exp reward for some PQs, like LPQ or PPQ. That was my suggestion:
    Make PQs better | MapleLegends Forums - Old School MapleStory

    I like this more than removing completely the stage yea
     
  13. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    I understand what you're saying but you're arguing my exact same point. That's why I'm confused on what you were arguing with me about. Any notion beyond "No need to buff Shoes/Glasses/etc if increased exp" that should be directed to Gurk, the OP of the thread, and his points.


    Okay, I might make a thread on this.
     
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  14. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I just realized you said you dont want items buff lol my bad on this
     
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  15. pr1ncess
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    pr1ncess Blue Snail

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    What exactly is “too custom?” Who decides the bar for that?

    If our goal here is the best game design for the ML community I would like to understand where the “custom” line stands and how those goalposts can or cannot be moved.
     
  16. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    That line is decided by the staff at their own discretion really.
    Also Kimmy's latest end of the year post in the announcements forum might shed some light on it.
     
  17. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Bump.

    Also wanted to say I've come around to the idea of having PQ bosses award coins/pouches. It's not a bad thing for people to learn about splitting boss loot early in their maple career and it will put some coin (haha) in new players purses. The drop rate has to be low enough for it not to be abusable ofcourse.
     
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  18. TermiteLover
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    TermiteLover Brown Teddy

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