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Multimage Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by akashsky, Sep 30, 2022.

Is multimaging bad?

  1. yes

    90 vote(s)
    56.3%
  2. no

    30 vote(s)
    18.8%
  3. neutral (not good or bad)

    40 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Chronos

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    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    4:41 AM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    193
    Nimbus
    For what it’s worth, I bought a $500 laptop that I use to multimage. Not a $1000+ machine.

    Well, technically I bought it for work but I also use it to multimage kekW
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
  2. Runar
    Offline

    Runar King Slime

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    Apr 26, 2020
    1:41 PM
    Paladin
    Funk
    nice flex m9!!! not everybody has a jerb f5555
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Chronos

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    4:41 AM
    leetoratto
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    I would think that someone who doesn’t have a job has bigger problems than other people multimaging.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • Disagree x 1
    • Creative x 1
  4. Daydreamer
    Offline

    Daydreamer Windraider

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    Jul 8, 2017
    4:41 AM
    Islander
    There are sooo many places to farm mesos. I like Dark Drakes and Drakes in Sleepywood. You can also try Night Ghosts, Nintos, or CDs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Rapskal
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    Rapskal Brown Teddy

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    Nov 1, 2017
    Male
    11:41 PM
    Rapskal
    Night Lord
    Lost
    Multimaging's bad, but not as bad as buff muling
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. ooShawnyoo
    Offline

    ooShawnyoo Chronos

    81
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    Sep 17, 2021
    Male
    Montreal
    7:41 AM
    Frenzied
    Multi-clienting is the big bad that is pulling the strings behind it all. He's the final villain. Multi-mages, mules and self leeching are just his puppets.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. Toon
    Offline

    Toon Mr. Anchor

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    May 22, 2020
    Male
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    9:41 AM
    Toon
    Marksman
    200
    Pasta
    The real villain are the players who just want to complain instead of giving a chance to the game

    "Wash is so fucking bad i don`t feel like playing" - don`t read or follow all the guides that teach how to wash ranged from the beggining with 0 nx

    "Multimage is destroying the server and doesn`t let me progress"- don`t even play in a single mage or boss in an attacker consistently, choices that could head to success too. Those players usually choose to play with subpar weapons (axes, bws, 1h swords) and/or don`t care to improve their player skill and possible optimizations on bosses.

    "Multiclient in general should be removed" - try to boss/ play regurlaly always depending on specific compositions with 1k players

    Really, i don`t get why the same players, who don`t actually play the game, systematically come on forums to spread false information contaminated by their ignorance or unwillingness to play

    Assume yourself as a henehoe and be happy. There is nothing wrong about it
     
    • Agree Agree x 13
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Windraider

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    Jul 8, 2017
    4:41 AM
    Islander
    I've been playing the game since 2017. I have multiple washed characters and my main is a mage. That doesn't change the fact that multi client and washing are issues and bad design. Neither were nearly as prevalent in GMS as well.

    Whether or not someone chooses to use them or not says nothing about whether or not they are good game design.

    In other words:
    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. Toon
    Offline

    Toon Mr. Anchor

    261
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    May 22, 2020
    Male
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    9:41 AM
    Toon
    Marksman
    200
    Pasta
    GMS game design was buy nx and win. Here you have to allocate well your resources in order to progress in a reasonable pace. Considering all the op gear we have (30 scrolls, capes, gloves easily obtainable) + 2x + faster respaw timer, wash doesn`t break the progression even playing with 200 int until very late game. Interesting fact is that game progression and design is much better here with multiclient and wash than was back then with pay to win/bot/unbalanced classes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. shck
    Offline

    shck Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

    109
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    130
    Feb 10, 2020
    Male
    Singapore
    8:41 PM
    Recube
    Buccaneer
    Bloom
    Multimage is the result born from the cirucmstance that is multi-client being made legal.
    At some point, it was evident that multi-client was not a good idea, this was when multi-client was disallowed due to Hammer mules in HT, which, in my opinion, was a step in the right direction, but since it was unpopular, it quickly got reverted. This effectively took away any discussion room for making changes to multi-client at the period it was needed most. By now, it was only a matter of time before multimage became the go to method for farming/progression.
    When Covid-19 pandemic hit, the influx of new players served as a catalyst that sped up the inevitable, which is game development not being able to keep up with player progression.
    The final nail in the coffin came when Prestigious Coins discussion was first brought up, but only got implemented much later. The potential change at any given time became the enabling factor for more people to start their multimage farming in anticipation of the next patch, irregardless of what direction it will bring the game in.
    With that said, it is unfair for people to blame others for doing multimage farm, they are just more progress oriented than most casual players. There was a flaw in the system, people saw the opportunity and took it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    Mar 9, 2017
    4:41 AM
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    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    What I want to see are people's perceptions of how much money all of the general strategies make. How much does multimage make compared to leeching or bossing with X party composition doing X boss. It's okay to not know, in general it's a much more respectable position to take no position, but to make claims regarding the 'overtuned' nature of strategies without any data to back it up is a poor argument.

    I make enough to be satisfied with my time spent playing just a corsair with an HB mule, enough that making 4-6 mages doesn't feel like a tempting increase in potential income. If you aren't happy with bossing, then maybe it's better to explore why that is rather than blame a boogieman. Are you invested to a close degree as it would be to having a multimage setup, and does your income reflect that scaling effort? Are you putting in a concerted effort towards efficiently making money with your strategy, reflecting on what is and isn't working, and adjusting your strategy to meet your expectations? If you aren't doing what is within your power to shift the odds in your favor, is it really fair to say that alternative strategies are too powerful? It's possible to force any strategy to work, as all of my income has come from bossing, and if I wanted to I could make an argument that my bossing efforts are too overpowered if it were compared to the efforts of uninvested characters running exclusively 6man zakum, 12man HT, and APQ. Low investment, low effort strategies functionally shouldn't have have equivalent payouts to invested, efficient strategies, and that should be the case for any strategy, be it bossing, leech, or multimage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Windraider

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    Jul 8, 2017
    4:41 AM
    Islander
    Personally I'm against muling and multi-mage type of stuff because I feel that the gameplay should stay in the game and not turn into a matter of client manipulation or similar shenanigans. Similar to pay2win, vote2win, botting, account sharing, etc., multi-client moves game progress from playing the game to effectively doing something totally outside the game. In the case of multi-client, the "skill" or "work" involved is about how to effectively juggle multiple clients using macros, window management, etc. and what maps and jobs benefit the most from this.

    Multi-client doesn't engage with the game on its own terms but attempts to "metagame" a completely new form of progression. Instead of approaching the game from the standpoint of like "what does my class do well, what maps are best to farm, how can I more efficiently clear this boss" etc., it approaches the game from the angle of managing multiple clients and figuring out how to automate/AFK as much of the gameplay as is allowed in the TOS to focus on managing multiple characters, whether that be creating LUK paladins or alt-tabbing hurricane to farm on another client.

    If this sort of meta-gaming is sub-optimal to playing the game, I wouldn't mind it. But because it presents any sort of advantage, however slight, it creates a situation where people have to do all this out-of-game progression to effectively play the game at 100%. In GMS, did you need to spend $$$, bot, hack, multi-client, or account share to progress? No. But you put yourself at a huge disadvantage if you didn't. So people would take any advantage they could outside the game and, as a result, progression in-game became subordinated to stuff like having the spare $$$ to buy Gachapon tickets and friends who log in your account and carry you through bosses and so on.

    What I'm saying is that how much advantage you get from multi-client doesn't need to be quantified. I've seen what happens when games move progression to some sort of metagame or out-of-game progression. Players become demoralized and feel like they are being surpassed not by skill or efficient play, but through some sort of illegitimate or contrived means. This sort of attitude has an extremely negative effect on communities. It doesn't really matter if you can or can't actually make progress (you absolutely still can by playing totally casually without any mules or anything like that) but the idea that people are getting an advantage by using some sort of set up where they have multiple characters and are controlling them all by alt-tabbing and using macros or a controller or something leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    I think this sort of situation is similar to RWT. It doesn't really matter if RWT is rare or if RWTers are not in the top 10% of players or whatever. The idea that I could be farming and playing the game and somebody else is getting an advantage by using their credit card is off-putting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Informative Informative x 2
  13. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Selkie Jr.

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    Oct 16, 2021
    8:41 PM
    just hoard/inflate coins to 4/5m and bossing meta will prevail over multimage.
    So Joel wins. :D
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  14. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Selkie Jr.

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    Oct 16, 2021
    8:41 PM
    buff drop rates pls.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    The central part of the idea sounds like it would have been better off codified in the rules long ago, as a day 1 measure. There are new servers who take measures against multiclient, and I'll probably pay a visit as it sounds refreshing, but measures against it here would make for a poor decision. At this point, multiclienting is ingrained into the game at the core, such that any change now seems catastrophic and regressive. The decision as to how to determine who is playing correctly and who is playing incorrectly is never something to be made lightly, especially years into a project with large populations with many different play styles. Deciding how games ought to be played should not be moralized within the scope of the system at present, as we are in a well established eco-system where there are as many answers to how to play as there are players. How one ought to play isn't something that can be answered outside the scope of the Terms of Service, and to add to it isn't something that can be done lightly.

    Let's say that for example, multiclienting is taken away. To do so is to decide that me using Hyper Body on myself in bosses was wrong for me to do. But to add to that, how hard I chose to wash was influenced by my ability to utilize a second client in bossing. There was a long historic precedence for multiclienting that influenced my decision to wash, so is it right to have that HP taken away from me, leaving me with no recourse for being able to do content the same way again? Should Night Lords be unable to do content alone, when their decision to make a Night Lord might have been influenced by their ready BM/MM? They might be edge cases, but is there a solution to multiclienting that satisfactorily settles the concerns and playstyles of everyone, given the massive scope of such changes?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  16. twing1
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    twing1 Brown Teddy

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    4:41 AM
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    Beginner
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    Thank you for posting this.

    This puts my own feelings, and also those of so many others that I've spoken to, into intelligible thought. I could not have said it better, nor even half as good, myself.

    Multi-clienting travels too far beyond the spirit of simply playing the game for me, and I know many others, to enjoy and support as a strategy. Not to mention that it also artificially inflates online player count and creates a ghost town of afk characters that may as well be NPCs, which all contribute to a very harsh reality for newer players to wake up to when they realize what is going on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. twing1
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    twing1 Brown Teddy

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    If we woke up tomorrow and multi-clienting were suddenly removed, most of these issues could be addressed with balance tweaks. Night lord self-reliance could be taken a look at, as measures could be made to decrease their dependancy on SE. Hp and hyper body dependence is already an issue the staff has acknowledged in their future plans of a defense rework.

    The idea that, because some people have made character decisions based off of multi-clienting, the game should be balanced around it as a valid strategy does not hold water in my opinion, because making balance decisions around the assumption that players will be bringing mules or using multiple clients for other purposes will inherently affect (and almost surely negatively impact) the game balance of the single-client experience. Because multi-clienting is playing the game outside of the game, so to speak, and not playing the game in its truest form, game balance deserves to be centered around the single client experience. In my humblest opinion of course.

    The biggest issue with removing multi-clienting altogether would be reimbursing players who made multiple accounts for the hours they put into those characters, as it would be a very difficult task to come up with proper compensation in meso or NX resources, not to mention getting those resources to the actual player behind those accounts, on the single account they would hypothetically be keeping.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Chronos

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    4:41 AM
    leetoratto
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    If the ability to multiclient was removed, what’s to stop players from using multiple machines? Or even a VM? Hell, Windows can already run multiple desktops as is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Soblet
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    Soblet Skelegon

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    If it's made a breach of ToS then the threat of a ban would stop users from doing that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Chronos

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    How would that actually be enforced though? There’s no way to actually detect if someone is multi-machining or two normal players
     

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