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Returning scammed items

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Lionheart, Nov 19, 2015.

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  1. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    I am not here to point fingers or hurl insults or berate the staff. I only have a simple argument to make in regards to the items Franco lost. This is Kimberly's latest post on the subject:

    Emphasis mine.

    The first and most important thing that stuck out to me is that yes, the staff plainly admit that what happened was a scam. The person who borrowed Franco's gear tried to steal it. This person is a rule breaker and a scammer, who will be punished.

    What I do not agree with is why the stolen equipment will not be returned. There are only two correct routes to go here when handling a scam case:

    1) The suspect in question was NOT a scammer, or there simply isn't enough proof/reason. So therefore nothing can be done, he gets off scotch free with said items/services.

    2) The suspect IS a scammer. They will be punished, and stolen items will be returned if possible. For example, it's hard to "return" a leech or even payment if the player happens to be broke.

    However, the staff has acknowledged that what transpired was indeed a scam, yet they refuse to give the items back. The reason, again:

    "Eventually we decided on this because in our previous announcement here, we stated that we needed proof of agreement to be able to take action on scammers. We also have rejected past scam reports due to lack of evidence, thus it would be unfair to those players if we accepted this one."

    The announcement is deleted and no longer valid. Originally the announcement said that proof would be required. Now, there is a policy amendment incoming that will basically say proof isn't necessarily required, but if this is the case, it will be up to GM discretion to determine if a scam took place.

    Here's the thing: you claim it will be "unfair" to players who previously made scam reports but did not have concrete proof. But did you not consider what you are doing now is unfair? Clearly this has been a scam, yet you refuse to return the gear.

    Rather than doing the wrong thing in an attempt to be consistent, you should do the right thing and then try to apply that to previous cases. Return the stolen gear to Franco. Then, allow players to re-open those scam cases that didn't have sufficient evidence if they so desire and make a new judgement based on "GM discretion". This way, we have a fair outcome for everyone.
     
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  2. Sucre
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    Sucre Zakum

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    Although I agree that if evidence was found, the items should be returned...past cases would be much more difficult to look into because the logs are older and I doubt the people who got scammed remember any close timestamp, heck even exact day...
     
  3. rewyuio
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    rewyuio Selkie Jr.

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    Id also like to clear out on any claims that the gms may make on him "giving" the gear. If you also checked his trade logs you will see the amount of times he has given gear and the hundreds of times following that he received it back, showing that his intent was to lend, never give. You have clear evidence of the gear he has reported which adds to this case. You had a given timestamp in which he, Franco, has given. What is to stop him from getting his gear back? If you are going to check the other scam cases, you are going to realize, in what way did they get scammed? How is it possible to even get scammed besides lending someone something?
     
  4. Freddychanyo
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    Freddychanyo Slimy

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    Okay, I haven't payed attention to this shitfest, but why is everyone except Franco asking for his gear back?
    I don't get it.
     
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  5. Aero
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    Aero Skelosaurus

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    Just going to point this out to everyone in future comments etc.

    The amount of times someone has done something in the past is irrelevant to the actions they take in the future. Everything is subject to change and that is what the staff has to go by. The NOW, not the past.

    Apart from that... continue OnionBlush
     
  6. OP
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    Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    It's not true, Aero. The dozens upon dozens of trade logs with multiple people and testimony quite clearly show a consistent record of the practice of lending int gear so people could level up and gain more MP.

    The record of the past is in fact the most important because it seriously puts into doubt that Franco randomly decided to give a dude he barely knew all his gear worth billions of mesos permanently and for free.

    FreddychanyoFreddychanyo I dunno maybe he's still sleeping. It's funny because other people were the first to make the initial report too... does it matter? Onionthehehe
     
  7. Aero
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    Aero Skelosaurus

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    Yeah, but what I'm trying to say is that the fact that he has given it in the past doesn't really do anything to now, you are giving evidence for this case on previous actions. Sure, it helps the mindset of "He wouldn't do it because he hasn't done it in the past" but the staff can't go on that due to it not being solid evidence...

    If anything, the logs of him giving the equipment out for lending just show multiple chances he has given someone to put him in this situation. I highly doubt he screenshotted over 70% of those transactions.

    (Even i've used it and I am very thankful for being able to use them)
     
  8. Freddychanyo
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    Freddychanyo Slimy

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    I might be out of line, but...
    Sorry, but bottom line I have to agree with the staff's decision.
    Even if he's been proven to lend people INT gear hundreds of times.
    I feel really bad for the guy, but if the staff is going to be professional and strictly objective they cannot act without substantial proof.
    Franco sounds like a really stand up guy and it sucks that this happened to him. :/
    Let this be a reminder for all of the players that you should always screenshot your conversations with the people you lend your gear to. Hell, I even screenshot when people lend me gear.
     
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  9. OP
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    Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Let me remind you again, Freddy. I guess this wasn't clear enough.

    The staff HAVE acted already. They have branded the person a scammer and will be punishing him. They will be taking those ill-gotten items, but instead of returning them to Franco, they will essentially just be destroying them.

    The end of the OP suggests to return Franco's gear instead and simply open up previous cases to be treated in the same "no concrete evidence" way. That's a lot better than saying "oops we're sorry, we know it's wrong, but we want to stick strictly to the old policy just this final time."

    I ask staff, when the next scam case crops up and there is no concrete evidence, wouldn't it still be "unfair" to previous cases to return items without 'solid proof'? Especially this one? You simply don't want to do it in this instance because you think it's unfair to change the rule while you're in the middle of a case. But this isn't like a game of monopoly or a sport where changing rules midway into the game creates unfair advantages. This is a dynamic server with a dynamic community, and the gameplay never ends until the server dies. One way or another changes are always going to come to (hopefully) improve the server.
     
  10. Marty
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    Marty Headless Horseman

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    Not relevant to your main question, but just to point out... You say the announcement was removed, which is true, however it was there when the case developed, thus it applied at that time and in any judgment in the case, it applies as well. Changes shouldn't be applied retroactively.

    I've pointed this out so many times yet you seem to blatantly ignore it time after time.
     
  11. OP
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    Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    It's because you're flat-out wrong. I feel it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you.
     
  12. Aero
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    Aero Skelosaurus

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    I feel like this thread is a waste of time. The decision has been made, spend your time on something more productive than decision that isn't going to be changed. Lol
     
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  13. Freddychanyo
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    Oh okay, I think I understand what you're trying to say now.
    I get your point, I really do. MapleF12
    They are changing the rules, but if they were to give Franco his shit back it'd just look like they were changing the rules for him (yes, I know they'd open the old cases etc. but they wouldn't have done that if it wasn't for this case). It just doesn't work that way and I believe their way of thinking is the right way when "governing" a community. They have to be cold and factual.
     
  14. Sucre
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    Sucre Zakum

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    The staff clearly specified to make a new thread if we wanted the discussion to keep going. I don't see how that's a waste of time.
     
  15. Aero
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    Aero Skelosaurus

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    They told you that so you could vent most likely... if the staff went back in their decision they'd look weak, clearly making them unable to make a final decision. If they honestly wanted the communities view on this, wouldn't they have asked for it previous to the final decision?..

    There are other people who agree with the staff, who can make just as many valid points as people against the staff can... They made a decision knowing this, why would they ever go back on it. Its all a matter of view.
     
  16. Sucre
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    Sucre Zakum

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    The only people who gave arguments against Franco getting his gear back was always the same: "Favouritism" or "The staff can't act without enough evidence". The thing is there is evidence now, provided by the staff. There is really no favourtism if the staff give him his gear back and I'll tell you why. The old rule clearly stated there needed to be evidence of a scam to be refunded, there now is evidence of him being scammed. The reason the staff acted on the case to look for evidence wasn't because of "favouritsm" towards franco, it was because of the uproar caused by the community since Franco had many friends, which aren't necessarily the staff. If the people in past scam cases without provided evidence would have had many friends and the things he got scammed were important enough, I can bet the staff would have ended up investigating the case to avoid more drama. And that's my point, the staff wouldn't be doing "favouritsm" for Franco, other cases didn't have any kind of repercussion on the staff not because they weren't "favourites" of the staff, but because they simply didn't have many friends to back them up, sadly to say.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
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  17. OP
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    Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Being cold and factual isn't the way to go. Going down that path leads to robotic, unthinking adherence to rules. The death of common sense. The staff need to be warm and compassionate. But at the same time, they need to keep their reason about them.

    At this point, we know the culprit is guilty. There isn't a single good reason to not return the items, except for "well it wasn't in our policy until now." But you see, neither was punishing the person without concrete evidence. That's what I'm talking about. It's cold, it's unfeeling. I see the motive in it trying to be "fair", but it isn't being "fair". It's only being "equal". If we treat all players equally unfairly, how is that a positive thing?

    I'm trying to suggest an alternate course of action that is more fair and helps more people. We can open up previous cases if desired and treat them equally. Thus, there should be minimal controversy over past treatment.
     
  18. Freddychanyo
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    Freddychanyo Slimy

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    So the evidence the staff is seeing are the items in the "thief's" inventory, right?
    That still doesn't prove the reason why he has the items.
    First of all, I actually agree with not punishing the thief until it's been proven that Franco lent him the items.
    Also, as I haven't been paying attention to this case, why not get him to confess?
    Has the staff talked to the individual?

    Second of all, I have a different view of what the staff should be. They should follow their own rules completely and not warm and compassionate. Just like a government they are first and foremost an important organ in a society that adheres and acts on their own rules. Of course, this isn't a country's government, but I believe in principles.
     
  19. Franco
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    Franco Wolfspider

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    Well, I thank all you guys that argued against the actions being taken by the staff, I don't think you'll be surprised to find that I agree with your statements. To be perfectly honest I did not expect anything to come from this, I did not think the scammer would be punished and even less that I would get my items back. However this decision to punish the person who took my gear and then destroy it baffles me, recognizing the scamm, punishing the offender yet not returning the gear seems ilogical to me. I feel it is unfair but at the same time I know the staff will not change their mind.
    Hopefully if something similar happens in the future, other won't be fucked over like I was but hey, It happens. Remember guys, never try to be nice :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
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  20. rewyuio
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    rewyuio Selkie Jr.

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    Sun Tzu, the author of the art of war which is a book known for dictating who wins a war, once said, "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their solider." Here we had a situation in which the rules were unclear to the point that the staff had to go fix them. Why can't you just give the gear back? Seriously, how will this effect, besides Franco, anyone at all. You know with common sense that this was a lend not a give, anyone that claims otherwise should reevaluate their skills. We have the concise proof, of the gear, and the intent, what more is there to give. Literally, what other way is there to scam besides taking off with someone's gear that they lent you? No one is just going to give their best gear away unless they were quitting. Here we see Franco still active trying to still get shit done without his gear, in hopes of getting them back one day. Is it really that unmethodical to just hand back his gear with the evidence we have?
     
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