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The Grand Gachapon thread

Discussion in 'Accepted' started by Kimmy, Dec 8, 2015.

Gachapon changes: READ TOPIC

Poll closed Dec 15, 2015.
  1. A2

    44.3%
  2. A3

    15.8%
  3. A3B

    6.6%
  4. A4

    6.0%
  5. B (please post in topic, read B description)

    16.4%
  6. C

    4.9%
  7. Other (please post in topic, read Other description)

    6.0%
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  1. Nikki
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    Nikki Selkie Jr.

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    This opinion may be unpopular to a bulk of the players that are posting in this thread. But strangely, a bulk of the players who are posting in this thread seem to both be high leveled players and players willing to commit a large amount of time to grinding/farming per week. This does not exactly represent the bulk of the MapleLegends population. Also, these players will stay regardless due to the time they've invested in the server and the value they've already acquired from taking advantage of past versions, so I feel as though the server should not increase its catering, item-wise, to high levels. Rather, they should be influencing new character creation (whether it be new or old players creating the new characters, it all make the servers lower stages look fuller and more inviting to actual new players) and eventually server growth.

    NaviNavi had mentioned in a thread a very long time ago that he wanted this server to be about choices (I believe at the time it was in reference to NX distribution [AP Resets vs Gach maybe?]) and I agree. By adding the ability to farm powerful items at high level training spots (such as at, say, ToT), you provide seasoned players (who have already been touting their 'ability' throughout the thread) with the ability to have their cake (exp) and eat it too (items)

    I don't believe high powered drop additions should be added to high leveled monsters. In that case I would rather see everything stay in Gachapon indefinitely. The choice that exists between farming items and obtaining exp must continue to exist (for high levels!!!) or else inequality will be exacerbated. Low leveled monsters are a different story and i'd be down to see improved drops implemented (because some new players [being that the ultimate goal here is to retain and/or improve the growth factor while drifting away from the Gachapon system, right?] like to grind rather than PQ), but due to 4th job farming prowess, a farming level cap for low leveled monsters that award powerful items would be necessary.

    Now I don't know if that is possible (limiting drops from low leveled [lvl 80 to 90 or less] monsters). If it is not, than instead of making them drops, provide '999' monster quests (with level limits) for the lower leveled characters who prefer to grind (while of course also buffing all PQ drops with dark scrolls/other powerful economic items that will draw mesos out of consumer/merchant/high level grinder pockets, hint: put the most powerful items in 'dropsplit' situations to distribute mesos/value obtained among 'winners' more evenly [king slime, alishar, papa pixie, PPQ boss, etc])

    This:
    1. Incorporates grind farming for those who prefer it over PQs
    2. Eliminates large scale farming inequalities that exist when 4th job begins
    3. Incentivizes party grinding (if the '999' monster idea is added, since I don't believe limiting drops is possible anyway)
    4. Incentivizes new character creation both for new and old players. The old players get more of the items they long for (using their 'ability' and 'seven years of experience' [Kappa] to streamline the maple story process) and the new players get early economic participation/validity

    Both Andyman9999 and his opposition provide valid points in their pages long arguments. The truth of the matter is that both of you are right in different areas. Class inequality does provide some players with farming advantages. Alternatively, players with more time on their hands to farm should obtain better items.

    I believe this solution provides both viewpoints with a viable compromise. On top of this I suggest a slight meso buff at skeles (not back to where it was originally, but a bit more than it is now) and an EXP buff at ToT to make it equal expwise (or very close to) for two attackers with an HS mule vs 1Atk1Bish at Skele.

    TL;DR, 1. No having your cake and eating it too, high levels (ToT drop increase, KEKARINO) 2. Add gach items to PQs (high value in 'split' monsters) and low leveled grinding monsters (level specific '999' monster quests if can't limit high level farming)

    Bottom line: High level monsters should not drop high value items, award the most exp, the most mesos, and the most NPCable/Sellable high level equips ALL at once
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
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  2. Boggyb
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    Boggyb Master Chronos

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    Very well said. All of this please.
     
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  3. Languages
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    Languages Horny Mushroom

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    This is a very imporant part of the equation that people are overlooking. The discussion has completely revolved around how any single person can 'farm' the items they needed, and not looked at the market as a whole. We don't need to make it so every player can farm every item, we just need to make it so every item is available on the market. As long as someone is getting the items, and if not for personal use, to sell, then we have solved the largest issue that this thread was supposed to be about, scroll availability and gachapon viability. The best way to do this while enfranchising new and low level players is to increase quest rewards, pq rewards and split drops among all levels of mobs, not just the highest.
     
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  4. OP
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    I agree with this part mostly. Not going make a long post, but Maple has so many maps right now that nobody uses. Pretty much by that shows enough what my opinion is right now. However, I have a combination of other opinions, too.

    There need be more attraction for people to use maps with less EXP but reward player for better drop(s) in exchange. That way people won't only grind at the map with bext EXP and best Mesos and leave about 75% of other maps with less EXP alone.

    There's a few other changes I have in mind, but that's currently step 2, which isn't something I am revealing yet for discussion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
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  5. Andyman99999
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    Andyman99999 Pac Pinky

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    There are only two problems I see with this. People can intentionally make a low leveled character to farm with. Getting on their main, killing the 999 enemies or whatever in the same party. It's either people would try to do this, or they would be killing their low leveled character to remain at the same level, so they could farm like this.
     
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  6. Autoassemble
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    Autoassemble Selkie Jr.

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    I will answer to your points in order NikkiNikki.
    The committed user-base is the backbone of the entire server and it does represent a large portion of the player-base. The reason why the committed players represents such a large portion of the user base is because the systems currently in place is unfavorable for both the new players and the long time committed players.

    First off I just have to say, "Also, these players will stay regardless due to the time they've invested in the server" this is basically the same as saying, we can keep giving our loyal user-base the finger because fuck it, they will stay anyway.
    There has not been anything to take advantage off in past versions besides the change that was applied to gacha (it was more rewarding before when just gaching in shrine).
    If the A2 option is implemented properly it will as I already said both provide new players with alternative ways of obtaining scrolls and income, as well as provide options for progression which is sorely lacking with the current setup.

    The "seasoned players" have worked hard to get to the point that they are at currently and they have earned the right to be able to work towards end-game. You work hard to get levels until you get to a point where you can work towards end-game. This is not something that should be given to players that have not invested the time to reach this point and this is simply how mmo's work.
    "Often, the widened range of equipment available at the maximum level will have increased aesthetic value to distinguish high ranking players in game. Colloquially known as endgame gear, this set of empowered weapons and armor adds a competitive edge to both scripted boss encounters as well as player vs. player combat. Player motivation to outperform others is fueled by acquiring such items and is a significant determining factor in their success or failure in combat related situations." - Wiki page on mmorpg's

    Let me just state right now that tot as it is currently, it is impossible for any player to get more exp there than at skeles, and to further widen the gap there could potentially be a small exp nerf to tot to make up for the items that can be gained, but these items should not be available to all players equally, regardless of level or time invested. Gameplay needs to be rewarded for people to keep playing the game.
    To address the idea of implementing end-game items from lower lvl mobs and putting a cap on farming for higher lvl players, this is plainly retarded. There is no other word that I can think of to describe this preposterous idea. (There has already been substantial discussion on this topic in this thread so I wont go into detail.)

    This is the only part of your post that I can actually agree on. But implementing a system as I suggested will not mean that this will be the case. (I mentioned in my post that I fully believe there needs to be a trade-off on exp for farming items)
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
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  7. Neko
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    Neko Wolfspider

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    so you are implying that most players on this low rate old version server don't want to put time into the game ?

    why do people join a low rate v62 server in the first place then ?

    also you can't expect to get everything if you come late( its like that for everything here in life and i don't think people should expect anything else) * would be more fair for new players if we had a weekly wipe or something so they could play from the start just like everyone else... but that would probly not be possible without everyone leaving the server due to being a stupid idea*
     
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  8. Andyman99999
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    Andyman99999 Pac Pinky

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    I agree with the better drops with less exp 100%.
     
  9. Nikki
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    The first point is a problem that should (and could) be avoided in some way. The second point I am completely fine with, let that happen. It still makes a choice between grinding and farming exist rather than combining them.

    Combining great exp and great farming, but only for high leveled players seems to be what you are fighting against, right?

    Giving the finger to seasoned players by not providing them an OP way of farming for their own items WHILE leveling and WHILE obtaining mesos/selling npc equips? How is it giving them the finger? The point of this thread is, as Languages pointed out, to increase scroll and gachapon item availability/viability while also maintaining some extent of the equality the Gachapon system provides.

    If i'm not missing anything, these seasoned players can (and will) have full ability to take advantage of these changes through the creation of new characters.

    Again, the changes I suggested increase seasoned players ability to work towards endgame through providing them a 'notTimeDependent' way to obtain rare items/scrolls. It also gives them the ability to BUY (with the larger amount of mesos they receive from grinding compared to low levels) items from lower leveled players who have obtained them through farming methods.


    Yes I agree, which is why I suggested an exp buff to make training with 2 attackers and an HS mule just as rewarding EXPwise as training 1Atker1Bish at Skeles. This can be done easily, really. Gameplay is rewarded with EXP.

    To address your second point in which you called my idea retarded: What are you considering an 'end game' item? Because I consider the most powerful items, such as (BWG, PAC, PUAC, Chaos Scroll, White Scroll, Ewand, etc etc) not to be 'end game items,' but rather simply 'high value items.' Why should only high leveled players be included in the chance to obtain 'high value items?' They are already the ones who are able to squeeze the most 'mesovalue' out of their training maps, by far.

    I would also include valuable crafting items (Power Crystal Ores mostly) as 'high value items' and advocate for them to be handed as PQ rewards or '999 quest' rewards, to stabilize prices and assure enough supply is available for the demand (currently, theres not).


    Not attempting to offend, but saying that you agree with this point is a bit silly. This point is the 'bottom line.' The rest of the posts above that you 'don't agree with' contain drawn out reasoning of why I reached that bottom line statement.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
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  10. Losj
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    Losj Capt. Latanica

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    What game can you reach the end by not investing time in it? Pocket Maplestory perhaps...
    Lower level players can also already buy items by simply just grinding and selling equips like we all did when the server was released.
     
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  11. Neko
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    Neko Wolfspider

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    maplelegends v62 ios/android p2w edition Kappa
     
  12. Andyman99999
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    Andyman99999 Pac Pinky

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    As far as I was told. The value of the items back then made the price of things considerably cheaper. Mesos stay the "same to get though". What I'm saying is, I believe I started around July and the only way to get more mesos is to sell equips/scrolls, since their prices actually change with the economy.
     
  13. Nikki
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    Nikki Selkie Jr.

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    No games. All of my suggestions still require time to be put into the game. Actually, you could argue that my suggestions require more time to be put into the game than the 'ToT4OPDrops' suggestions. This is because you have to choose whether or not to focus on grinding your high level/gaining mesos OR farming using your low leveled characters/improving server growth/gaining mesos through selling valuable 'highvalueitems' in the FM.

    As for your second point, the difference between them and you that you are simply unwilling to accept is that you started with everyone at 0 mesos. They are not. On top of that, highvalueitems were easier to obtain for a short amount of time during that time. The suggestions I made will allow low level players and high level players making new characters to farm for items equally.

    The only (and most important) disadvantage this brings upon high levels is them having to make the choice of whether to ppl2pass or items2make rather than being able to do both at the same time. We have both the mesos to buy the items from the increased/stabilized supply that will result from this (rightfully so, as they were earned) and the ability to make new characters.
     
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  14. Nikki
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    Nikki Selkie Jr.

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    No, i'm implying making certain 'highvalueitems' available farmingwise only for a specific, small percentage of the population that also already enjoys receiving the most value mesodrop-wise is creating a monopoly. Do you know what a monopoly is? Kappa

    I believe you're Swedish, right? I'll put this into a perspective maybe you can understand. Your country, through applying policies that hinder the free market and discouraging equal competition, is reserving economic power for an established/'seasoned' minority who already control the factors of production.

    The policies seemingly being favored by most of the 'seasoned grinder' population would do the same thing, but not provide any of the benefits the typical swedish person receives (healthcare, a guaranteed base level standard of living, etc). So, if we are going to go the route of beginning to limit opportunity as you guys are suggesting (which is obviously only being suggested to solidify current power over the factors of production), I would then be advocating for a stimulating package to be provided for all new players. That would be incredibly stupid, right? I agree :)
     
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  15. Languages
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    Languages Horny Mushroom

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    Last time I checked the meso value of equips is static while the price asked by players is at the mercy of inflation. As more money is pumped into the market and more players reach endgame looking to scroll, the value of scrolls has increased. How you can argue that obtaining them now is the same as at any time previous I'm not sure. Let me know where these high npc value low level farm spots are! MapleF8
     
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  16. Neko
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    Neko Wolfspider

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    Well we got alcohol monoploy in Sweden, so yes i know what that thing is all about.. welp that personal insult </3
    ( just lost a lot of respect for you )
    ^and yes, im a swede so im allowed to feel insulted for shit

    also did i say we should limit the possibility to get good things in the game ?, i just stated that everyone can't start at the exactly same time and therefor everyone can't have the same things nor the possibilities to get things
    its like saying a bishop shouldn't be able to kill 15mobs with one skill, due to it being unfair against a beginner only being able to attack 1 mob at a time
     
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  17. Loon
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    Loon Slime

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    I've never heard of a game in which a new player can get an end game item drop from low level monsters. If a level 35 I/L mage can go and farm ant tunnel for 12 hours and come out with white scrolls and PACs I really don't even know what to say to that other than that's incredibly stupid. Leveling up and investing time into the game allows you access to higher level monsters/content which in turn should have higher rates of dropping useful items. If someone doesn't have time to invest into a game then either accept the fact that your progression will be slower than those who do have spare time or find a game that doesn't require time investment (e.g. not a freaking v62 maplestory server). If chaos scrolls start dropping on maple island I'm out lol
     
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  18. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Making players create low leveled characters just so they can farm items is terrible game design. It's bad, Korean MMO design where the hot shot economic planners think a constant, exponentially increasing flood of new players will keep the economy propped up. But such an influx of players, even if it starts out well, never lasts for long, and the economy is doomed to stumble and crash.

    Part of the beauty of Maplestory is seeing your own character grow in power and become more capable. With that - more attack power, more mobility, the ability to affect more monsters - you have an increased grinding/bossing potential. You reward long-standing players who have put forth the time and effort by giving them the opportunities.

    New players are already spoonfed a lot. Most just don't know where to look. Low level players don't need 30% scrolls. Low level players have no use for end-game gear. That said, they can acquire said items from gachapon already. If you are dead set on allowing them to acquire such items, only for a truly new player to sell it for way under value or squander it, this is already achieved through gachapon.

    Yes, the lower level players have the ability to get 30% scrolls, white scrolls, chaos scrolls, pink and purple capes and more by doing a short activity that isn't even related to gameplay. That's their measure of equality, and that's enough. They don't intrinsically deserve any more. If you are of the mentality that new players should just have everything handed to them, you're starting to act like Neckson, who is so desperate to get new players to stick that they practically bribe them.

    Adding a few scrolls and stuff to ToT actually isn't a bad idea because, as others have already stated, ToT still isn't the optimal end game exp/hr. It's still skeles. The main reason is due to spawn and map design.
     
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  19. Andyman99999
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    Andyman99999 Pac Pinky

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    I have been fighting for balance between classes the entire time for farming. I would also like to see other maps be used so we all don't get stuck on the same maps for great farming and great exp. Back to balance, it's to prevent certain classes from getting more ahead of other classes then they already are. I'm fine with them being able to farm a little better. You just don't increase an advantage so they get even more of an advantage over other classes. Bosses aren't the same as farming. Most bosses have really long spawn times compared to the 1-2 seconds it takes for mobs to spawn (I need to see how long it actually takes).
    This is an EXAMPLE, I just want to make this CLEAR to some of the READERS, reading my post. This is NOT an ATTACK on anyone.
    Let's say gacha tickets dropped from mobs and only mobs. Another thing is, the tier chart I made would promote balance.
    To make this fair for all classes you would have to put a cap on the number of gacha tickets one could obtain and have to make that cap easily reached for any class. Why a cap? I already explained why, it's to promote "balance" between classes so people don't make classes for certain things. If we let all of the characters who can already kill faster obtain more tickets, it would make us wonder why we even chose our class in the first place. Bosses have spawn times on them, and you could waste time boss hunting compared to farming. I'm not saying you can't waste time farming, I'm just saying that you know it's going to take time for you to kill mobs either way, with bosses, you don't even know if they've been killed or not. Having the tier system as I have explained before, would give people incentive to level. Higher levels, could obtain more gacha tickets, resulting in more chances to get something good from gacha. The cap also prevents lower levels from farming as many tickets may not seem fair (because it's not). The point of it is to prevent people from creating a bunch of lower leveled characters to collect gacha tickets like that. What would be your motive to level the low level characters? I mean, you can just make another character and get 5 more gacha tickets (assuming that's the limit). Then again, saying two hours of farming takes that long enough on a higher leveled character. Another thing is, you could camp at skeles and get the 5 tickets that "fast". This is why lower levels get a smaller maximum number of tickets. Then again, you could lock the max number of tickets by the highest level character on your account (probably the smartest idea). Whatever Tier your highest character is in.
     
  20. Losj
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    Losj Capt. Latanica

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    ToT is not a place at this point that will make you rich or give you a lot of exp. There is no one in ToT. If it was such a good spot you would see every channel packed. I am there myself a lot because I can farm Pianakas and Spear stims from there. Not only is this expensive pot wise because I burn a lot of pots there but also is the exp horrible. I get 25m at best with an optimal party (Fun fact with Losj: Never is there a optimal party at ToT road to oblivion because the exp is not good) compared to skele which gives me 35m/h (both w/out exp event).

    Making a new character will not help the server growth in any way. If I would make a new character that would mean my main character is offline. The same amount of players are still there. In order for the server to grow you need more players that stick.
    We also help the server to grow by selling them Zakum Helmets which I am doing now for almost 7 months. We have helmed many players over these months and I am 100% convinced if it was not for this the server would look a lot more grim, but hey that's just my Elitist opinion.
    Same goes for the day we will take down Horntail. We shall help people get the books they need and the pendant in order for them to progress farther into the game and give them an opportunity to see end game.

    Unlike you I am in an active community of players that recently started and are considered top tier players. iSandyS2, Diluadid, And UnluckyKidUnluckyKid are perfect examples for this statement you make.
    I started out with 0 meso when most players did not have anything. Unlucky started playing 4 or 5 months ago, if I remember correctly right after Horizon disbanded and iSandyS2 and Diluadid started playing after the Leap patch. They are now top of the line players funded and they are doing perfectly fine. They also started with nothing on this server and they all made it to end game w/out any issues. They farmed items like any other player does when they need meso (Tip for free! Farm Glove for Att from Platoon Chronos and Helm dex 60% from Master Chronos).
    So no I am not unwilling to accept that everyone had 0 meso, I see players rise from nothing even after the market went to shit (imo it went to shit).

    I have sacrificed over a month now farming for Pinakas and Spear Scrolls. There is no such thing as making items and leveling at the same time (if farming for them). I blew up 46 spears and never managed to pass more then 2 30% scrolls on it. Do note that I am farming these items in ToT. If it was such a good way of leveling I would have been 180 by now. Forcing players to make new characters to farm items is the same as people are arguing against now. We are forced into a corner and at the mercy of the Gach system. Now we should be at the mercy of being lucky with leveling new characters. In what way is it bad for a player to farm his items when he is capable of beating the strongest mobs in the game. I really do not understand your logic with this. Look at Diablo. It is a huge farm fest. You obtain items by killing mobs. Item drops get better once you are stronger. In order to compete with the top you need to be able to kill monsters on the hardest difficulty. If you can not do this you can not compete. People want to compete, they will farm weaker versions to gain better upgrades (consider that being levels translated to this game), you will be able to slay stronger monsters and therefor you now are open to better upgrades which will still be based on RNG. Just because I can now farm items does not mean they will become godly items. It will still be a huge grind.

    Your idea makes absolutely no sense at all. With the system you suggested not only will the high level players have to create new low lvl characters for the sole purpose of farming for their end game items (which doesnt even make sense to begin with) but it will also impose the same unequality that you seek to remove towards the newer players of the server since they will have the ability to gain good exp while farming for these items.
     
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