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Buccaneer nerf when?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ThuMay26, Sep 11, 2023.

  1. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Radical, but I like this. At the same time move TL to archmages.
     
  2. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    Considering the most important endgame content is arguably HT and PB, I feel like you shouldn't be dismissing this. Most smaller PB squads comprise mainly of NLs by a very large margin. And PB is currently the most profitable and popular endgame benchmark for most players.

    NL also don't need to be the BEST in all content to be playable, and personally I am happy to see other classes shining at different bosses. Unfortunately, the other content you mention, besides Zak probably, is still outshined by PB in terms of profitability and popularity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  3. OP
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    ThuMay26
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    ThuMay26 Slime

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    I will just say the skill factor contributing to dpm on single target classes are not to be underestimated. Archer and sair dpm get absolutely wrecked if you're not playing skillfully. NL dpm is surprisingly affected by skill too; my NL friends' dpm improves by 20% depending on watching netflix or maplelegends.
     
  4. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    yeah, but hold tt as an example (or blast, talking about my job) is much easier than deal with combo and/or dismount
     
  5. OP
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    ThuMay26 Slime

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    Haha yes, I agree NL is still amazing and I don't disagree with the recent nerfs. I think I exaggerated too much when I said they were in a "sad state".

    However, in PB, I think bucc is arguably on par or better than NL because you can run PB without NL's, but you cannot run PB without buccs. On the other hand, if people think NL is too good for PB because 18-man runs consist mostly of NL's, I don't think they are wrong either.

    Nevertheless, the main point of this thread is essentially buccs' dpm seems too high considering the amount of utility they provide. NL's provide negative party utility because they require party buffs instead of providing them. On the other hand, buccs are a top-2 utility class that appear to have comparable dpm to archers, which also require skill to play, use more potions and ammo, and need more hp washing.

    If buccs do ~80% of their current dpm, will they continue to be invited in all content except one (cwkpq) just like now? Probably, thanks to their utility. And if the answer to the previous question was yes, my opinion is their current status is likely too high.
     
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  6. OP
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    ThuMay26 Slime

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    Well, I don't play either class so I can't relate very well but if we're forced to refer to NL's, which just had multiple nerfs in a row, then buccs surely are a powerful class, no?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
  7. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    So bro, you have to see some points,Until not long ago bucc couldn't use snatch and csb together (mentioned in the post) because they had skills that couldn't be used in ST, in the beginning bucc had problems with the barrage and damage lines cap, because it was 99k, the 30% gun and knuckle scrolls were introduced much later, as well as there were several mini buffs, I agree that maybe the combo (having utility, good damage, ignoring def) might seem op, but all of this goes down the drain when the player doesn't know how to play... even in PB itself, there's a whole guide on how to be bucc so as not grief
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. OP
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    ThuMay26 Slime

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    Thanks for your input! I can see that buccs had a rough time in the past and they require a lot of skill to play. I believe that just like now, buccs should continue to have a key role in most content including PB.

    However, I just think buccs will still be rewarding to play even if their dpm was reduced. Their utility kit right now is just too good alongside bishops, a class with single target dpm likely less than ~40% of other average attackers. I understand bishops can cast genesis to sweep maps and do great dpm on certain bossing situations like ht and zakum arms, but their single target dpm in most content is trash.

    I certainly don't think bucc dpm should be reduced even close to the level of bishops, but doing seemingly similar dpm to archers just seem way too high to me. If their dpm was reduced to ~80% of what it currently is, I still think buccs will still be respected and invited to most content just like now, and their role and required skill play will continue to be crucial in endgame content like PB.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
  9. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Aren't you just describing a bunch of buffs making buccs as good as they are right now. Precisely the reason they are overtuned.
     
  10. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    that's the main point, bucc was like that, there was a time when there wasn't a bucc main, only mule (when you could get 999 avoid) that's why I tell you there's no point going back to what it was...

    a good solution since many classes are "good" is to add more difficult content
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    Again, don't rely on buccs that know how to play and have perfect gear, there is an abyss for other jobs where you don't need mechanics, try creating a bucc and see for yourself
     
  12. OP
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    ThuMay26 Slime

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    Fair enough, if nerfs are too drastic to cause us to lose bucc mains, that would do us no good.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  13. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    In my opinion, I believe that if someone sets out to play a class that needs more mechanics, this boost is deserved, like Corsair, dpm in dummy for dpm in a chaotic situation is totally different
     
  14. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    (in this case, I used corsair as an example, but using bucc's cancel barrel is not that simple either)
     
  15. OP
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    If buccs really require that much more skill to play optimally, then it will make it difficult for me to disagree with you.

    I shall try on my own bucc in the future. It's only lv37 at the moment, haha
     
  16. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    I think it’s better to leave buccs in the spot they are in currently. They are strong for sure but runs get way more annoying to organize when you make the classes with supportive abilities weaker. It’s really not worth getting something wrong and putting them into mule status
     
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  17. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    forehead, I like this idea
     
  18. Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Pac Pinky

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    i agree buccs are powerful. but something to keep in mind is bucc doesnt do much damage while pinning. Demolition animation last so long that the boss can move too far by the time demo animation is done. Also, in HT Bucc does 4-5mil dpm while other classes can clear 6-7mil dpm. Bucc IS considerably weaker in dpm compared to archers/NLs, and SE is still more important/sought out buff than SI. using that single PB data to say bucc does as much dmg as archer and NL is very very disingenuous and kinda put me off from this whole thing, even tho i agreed to begin with.

    edit: i also agree that weakening bucc dpm will just make bucc become mules again, something we should avoid. after all, dpm is what allows classes to not become mules.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
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  19. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    now that alchemist has been nerfed for NLs. buccs actually are equal to NLs in terms of apple efficiency due to the following reasons:
    1) high dpm efficiency
    2) avoid/i frames
    3) low total weapon attack, meaning that onyx apples and gelts have a more significant effect on them vs say classes like corsair, archers, hero, pallies, shads.
     
  20. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    Reduce ST uptime.
    #makebuccspunchyagain
     
    • Agree Agree x 9

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