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Make HP Washing Optional

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by mettzi, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. mettzi
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    I understand HP washing is a contentious topic and has been talked to death, but I still think it's an issue.

    Current situation:

    HP washing is not a luxury, it's a necessity. Unless a player doesn't want to do HT until level 180, then they're going to have to invest into HP washing somehow. Whether this means putting points into base INT and hindering their damage, spending millions on INT gear, or putting all their stats into base INT and leeching their way up. That's not even counting the months of voting for AP resets. Either way there's a lot of planning required and it ruins the natural progression of the game. It's not as simple as creating a new character and leveling up. I don't think it's very enjoyable either.


    My suggestion:

    I think a fair compromise is to reduce the damage that bosses do to compensate for low HP players. This implementation doesn't remove HP washing from the server, and it doesn't throw away the hard work of those that have already HP washed. People who have already washed will have even more of a damage cushion, and will still have an advantage over those who have not HP washed. But more importantly it will remove the barrier of entry. Players can join this server without having to plan out the most optimal way to gain HP from level one. It makes character progression more organic and much less stressful.

    If you agree or disagree with this suggestion, let me know why.


     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  2. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Good food for thought ^^

    But that said, that sounds like a lot of work altering the coding so that mobs do less damage.

    Not to mention doing that massive alternation to the coding and values seems to take away from the authentic old school v62 feel of the server. Lots of ppl play on legends for the difficulty reminiscent of 2008 maple. And when mobs do less damage things become too easier.

    For example imagine trying to bomb elder wraiths as a chief bandit at lvl 72. Its super difficult at first because it's a 1 hit KO. But that's part of the game and what makes it more rewarding when u nail down the technique. With reduced dmg it'll just be a breeze~ and I think the same would 100% apply to the bosses. Finally getting enough hp to comfortably tank zak body to stun avoid is a super rewarding feeling as a warrior. And I think making that easier for a smaller minority of players isn't the best call
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. OP
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    mettzi
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    I understand that and agree with you.

    Although I mentioned mobs, my suggestion was mainly aimed toward bosses. At the bare minimum I think bosses could have their damage reduced so that a non-HP washed character could participate without 1HKO. Mobs could be done on a case by case basis.

    EDIT: Also I'm not sure why you implied this change would only be for a small minority of players.

    It would add the option of whether to HP wash or to not HP wash. If given the choice, I think many players would choose not to.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  4. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Yea that's starting to sound like more and more work for the admins :( gotta think about the practical implementation of the idea too. Figuring out what hp u mean by non-washers (what class, what lvl) is also tremendously difficult :S

    I'm not one of those super conservatives that are like "washing is part of 62!" I tbh didn't play until end game content untill Legends. But there really is something rewarding about washing towards a certain goal. Maybe there's a less drastic solution like reducing the amount of MP needed to wash certain classes like BMs and NLs. Less radical and therefore more easily acceptable
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. OP
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    mettzi
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    It might require some thinking, but I don't think it'd be tremendously difficult.

    The reference level would have to be determined by the staff, but thieves and archers have the lowest HP. So for example take the minimum HP of a level 155 archer/thief (whichever has lowest HP), subtract a couple hundred and apply that number to the boss' high damage attack.
     
  6. Awleh
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    Awleh Mr. Anchor

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    That or increase hp gained per point. OnionBlush
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. OP
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    That'd be an easier fix, but what about the players who are already at a high level? They would have missed out on a huge chunk of hp. Wouldn't be fair to implement without a wipe.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  8. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    It's definitely doable but it's hard to come to a number without it being arbitrary. The values right now are what we have to deal with, but if we start changing it, we have to start thinking what do we mean by "not 1 hit ko"? Is that just minimum hp +10 hp? Should they reach this min hp by 155 (for HT?)

    ^ answer to that would be no. Hp washing also allows players to get the upper hand by being able to boss earlier (e.g. Bigfoot for warriors)

    But if we allow NLs to be able to survive 1 hit at let's say 165, that might let Shads start by 158 (since they have mesos guard and all). There are all these domino effect/factors that u have to figure out & at the end all these choices and numbers we/admins decide on would be totally arbitrary and open to criticism :s

    Wait huge chunk of exp?
     
  9. OP
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    mettzi
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    Woops meant HP, not exp.

    The "not 1HKO" was what I meant by subtract a couple hundred HP from the minimum HP to determine the boss dmg. The player would be left with 100-200 HP if they have the minimum required HP.

    The level for the minimum hp would have to be determined by the staff. I just used 155 as an example for HT. They could do 140, 150, 160, doesn't matter. Up to them. If a player wanted to HT before that level, they could HP wash to accelerate the process. But having the minimum level at the 150 range is better than 180 or 190.

    There is already a survivability disparity between classes. Shads can already start earlier than NLs because of meso guard. Just like warriors can start earlier due to their high base HP. This wouldn't change anything.
     
  10. Awleh
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    Awleh Mr. Anchor

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    Exp?

    Yea, it might be a little unfair but thats how it has to be sometimes. Typical in gaming. You work hard to achieve something. Lets say you get a epic weapon. Then comes a new patch which makes said weapon useless and easy to achieve. It sucks for the old gamers but its necessary for the game to evolve and let new players have a chance to compete.

    There are alot of ways to fix washing. I figured this one would be the easiest way. Tho, in the end there is always going to someone that gets salty.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. OP
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    mettzi
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    Not really the same comparison since the player would still have the same weapon as everyone else.

    In this case, vets would be screwed because there's no way for them to gain that lost HP that all of the new players are getting.

    Some servers use the method you're talking about, but it doesn't work on an already existing server. That's why I'm suggesting the boss damage be reduced instead.
     
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  12. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Or just, you know... Subtract proper amount of MP/HP per SP so that net equals 0...
    Sure, people who already have washed get an advantage here from now but at least it blocks any future players from abusing them...

    Its like extinguishing a big wildfire. Has the damage done? Yes. Can we make it so that it doesn't happen again? Of course.
     
  13. OP
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    mettzi
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    Ok but then how are ranged attackers going to survive when bossing? It stops HP washing but it doesn't solve anything.
     
  14. Awliya
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    Awliya King Slime

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    Then how are ranged DD going to horntail?
     
  15. mazi
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    mazi Mushmom

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    There are higher damage classes (Nightlords Bowmasters Dark Knights) and lower damage classes (Shadower Marksman Heros Paladins)
    With the exception of Marksman, all classes on the lower end of the spectrum do not require washing.
    High damage classes are balanced out by the fact they take a long time to make if they were to boss properly.

    If you just propose to buff lower HP classes or to change the damage bosses deal to certain classes,
    a lot more players would be playing Nightlords, and this game will go from Bishopstory to Nightlordstory.
     
  16. Awliya
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    Awliya King Slime

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    Both archer classes and nightlords need washing to HT

    Without washing, you pretty much limit yourself to shadower/warrior classes only out of that list until crazy high levels 180+

    Not to mention what about future content?
     
  17. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Never done horntail pq myself before, but based on my experience with other boss runs, using hb seems like the most logical way of mitigating the problem.
    Can it be harder to find spearman at times? Sure, but you can find it if you try hard enough.

    Back to clarify what my original point- HP washing in general is a broken mechanic that was unintentionally added to the game. Heck, it's even been removed for quite some time now in GMS for a good cause. I understand that it might seem unfair for some class to have more hp/mp than others. However, that's just a nature of pros/cons with choosing each specific class, and most of those disadvantages can be fixed by working together as a team.

    In fact, that's another reason why I like this version of MS so much. Each class has its own big strengths and weaknesses so it's up to players to fill in those gaps for one another. On the other hand, the GMS today has become too polarized with number of classes that essentially does the same thing.

    We are questioning whether we should lower the barrier so it's newbie friendly like GMS today or be cooperative and work together as a cohesive unit.
    For that, I would still have to pick the second choice all the way.
     
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  18. mazi
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    mazi Mushmom

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    Thanks for repeating exactly what I just said
     
  19. Awliya
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    Awliya King Slime

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    Your logic makes no sense
    Nightlords are strong because of how watt functions for them, this is a separate issue from hp washing

    Preventing a hp washing fix because of this is not really solving anything

    Also: Who runs HT without HB lmao
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. OP
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    mettzi Pac Pinky

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    Making HP washing optional isn't making the game easy. It's making it playable.

    Being able to access HT prior to level 180 shouldn't be a pro or con for a class. I'm not asking to make every class an absolute tank. Just make it so that they can take one hit from HT and other bosses. Warriors will still have the advantage of being able to tank multiple hits.

    Everyone should be able to access all of the bosses at a reasonable level. I don't think this should be gated behind an exploit such as HP washing. It's a huge turnoff to an otherwise great server.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4

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