Shads have mediocre damage and utility. We need more love.

I'm not referring to effort. But rather, DK having a broken HB skill, is justified by having a zerk. If zerk is to be replaced with ACA or fire/holy charge, it will make DK broken.
I guess NLs are supposed to be justified in a way where, they need SE to hit insane damage. But with so many SEs out there, such justifications are not valid anymore. But thats another topic I guess.

I guess unless these points are really laid down in a point-by-point comparision with other classes, its gonna be hard to convince anyone.

 

If shad damage is buffed to be on par with warriors wouldn't that just make warriors big dum-dums who spend 1.5mil to kill a HT and get no drops?

 

Said can be said with NLs and BMs, where BMs spends way more pots than NLs.

Or am I wrong?

 

If I had it my way, shad single target damage would be buffed to roughly around where heroes and DKs are at with just SI, but weaker than with both SI + SE. Their cleave damage would still dwarf shads in both HT and cwk and they'd still be much easier to wash. Warriors also still have magnet utility and DKs would still have HB utility.

Also, I'd go against the ToS and buff paladin .

 

As a Shadower I feel familial a duty to bump Gurk's high effort post. Like he mentioned, it really does show something when almost nobody plays a shad as a second main, and it's not unheard of nor is it uncommon for Lv200 shads to reroll to another class and never look back.

+1: It's not quite T-rex range but it's very close. This is a skill that feels very bad to use especially outside of bossing.

+1

+1: When Paladin cleave beats you significantly in CWK, you know you're in a rough spot... This is why I never CWK.

+1: Did the math on this ages ago and came to the same conclusion. Meso Guard doesn't "save pots," it just saves you from having to buy more of them (at a small premium).

+1: If anything, Heroes and DKs are Jack of More Trades than shads manage to be.

+1 KEKW

I'm quite drawn to the idea of changes in the "personal utility" direction because they have the potential to turn Shadowers into a genuine 'Thief' class. You know, stealing money and all that.

Here is a list of small buffs that would make me a reasonably happy Shadower:

• Allow Assassinate to be used outside of Dark Sight, but it will still only charge up in Dark Sight.
  Topic: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/shadower-assassinate.31257/
  • Also buff its range pls.
• Remove Pickpocket's 200 meso cap.
  Topic: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/remove-pickpockets-200-meso-cap.34440/
• Enable Pickpocket to work in conjunction with Assassinate.

And something I thought of just now:

• Boost the base damage of Chief Bandit's Band of Thieves skill. This would be a buff to shad cleave at places like CWK, and also help them out in everyday grinding (mostly against big groups of high HP mobs where you would actually deign to use BoT).

 

I haven't really thought it through too much but disorder would be a nice addition if it got a similar buff that the pages threaten has got (make it work on bosses and increase the defence and attack reduction).

Sure assassins would get a buff too but I think it will be warranted after the shadow star fix this upcoming patch.

 

https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/horntail-5-man-5-smoke-run.40458/

Shads have too much utility. Nerf please

 

This original post is a very busted rant to say that "shads suck and need a DPM boost." It's well-known that we're not top DPM attackers, but we have one of the most versatile and entertaining kits in the game. I've played 4th job as something from all 5 classes and I find it the smoothest uncontested.

If you care most about DPM, it's not a secret that you should choose something else. Either someone misled you into thinking that shads do top-tier damage and you're just realizing you've been had at lvl 17x, or you should've titled this post "Damn I wish I made a Night Lord." NLs have similar ease of play and, with SE, top-tier DPM at all bosses. But they're also hoes. From a broader perspective, like maybe including the good things about shads, I can't see the logic to support a damage buff.

Anyone can cherrypick all the bad things and make something seem whack, but let's talk about shad perks:


- Low pot usage - Only clowns don't understand the value here. Over one's entire journey, spending way less on pots is often glossed over as if it's not huge. There are many bossings where I could use an apple or 10 stoppers each run and still spend much less on pots than others. It's not a big impact but it adds to DPM in that sense, I've always been loose with attack pots because I could afford to be. You're doing something with those mesos you save when you spend <1m for Horntail pots and an archer or warrior spends >5x that.

- Our true DPM in bossing makes sense - In terms of real utility during bossing, the scales are slightly balanced in shad's favor because of our game-leading avoid (we come closest to reaching our uninterrupted dummy dpm) and the fact that we can charge nate at any boss that weapon cancels/damage reflects (which is a high percentage overall, the list of bosses who don't cancel/dr is much shorter). How much of a damage buff do you want, we're not much weaker uninterrupted than warriors now, and I don't think it would make sense that we're stronger than them fully-buffed. We also don't need any party buffs to do our optimal solo DPM, and archers/buccs DC just like anyone else.

- Smokescreen is a legit af party buff - Have you blessed the homies with smoke in Zak or Pink bean so they could send a text or have a bite? Have you saved your favorite bishop or some bright-eyed buyer because they were able to ress in peace instead of rest in peace? You're tripping cmon LOL smokescreen is great. Like low pot usage, it can also be measured as a DPM additive, even if it's not as powerful as SI/SE. With many types of party compositions, smoke's impact on the speed of a run is underrated. Runs are just faster when everyone is getting knockbacked less. Party invincibility for ~15% of a boss run is great and it also feels great (that's just with 1 shad, try running toad or neo tokyo with 3).

-Low washing needed to do all bosses + fastest non-mage class to train after lvl 70 - I realize how dominant the leeching meta is but it doesn't make sense not to value this, it's another often underrated benefit. Also if you think max taunt is a trash skill now since it does actual damage reduction, you've just been bumming.


I do think there's merit to increasing the horizontal range of assassinate a touch, it's just a very unnecessary inconvenience as is. I heard it would be a bitch to code SE to affect nate lines so that might be dead.

There are plenty of situations where we're not the "ideal" DPM class. Who cares (apparently you). We're solid at any boss, even CWK at higher levels. I think I do ~14.5m cleave with rage/SE which is plenty fine to duo.

If you enjoy smooth gameplay, shads are a good time. The nuances of timing/positioning precision to be great at ML bossing are also super engaging for this class in a unique way. If you care about DPM as much as this post suggests, make something else.

 

#MakePickpocketGreatAgain

 

I agree with what has already been said before but it will pretty much be a jack of all trades character with great survivability. Th real reason to take a shad besides muling is you can use one very early on for low NX characters and then if you want to make a serious one later you can.

 

I don't think anyone picks shad expecting it to do top dps, but many people I find are a bit shocked to find out later on how much less single target damage shads do under ideal conditions than other cleaves.

With just SI, shads do roughly around the same damage as DKs (skis), and do about 11% less damage than heroes (claymore) and 12% less damage than buccs. With SI+SE, shads do 12% less damage than DKs and about 16% less damage than heroes and buccs [these are with perf weps, 21 gloves, 14 cape].

With DKs and buccs additionally providing significantly better utility and DKs and heroes having vastly higher cleave damage, I can't fault shads for yearning for a little something more after looking at these numbers.

I can definitely appreciate the savings on pots. Though in the light of highlighting shad perks in an overall attempt to characterize damage buffs as rather unwarranted, it seems a bit off to compare the pot costs of a low damage melee character to that of a high damage range character, as just about anyone would be willing to spend more on pots for vastly more damage. After all, we spend a lot of money on better gear to do more damage. As for comparisons to other cleave classes, >5x would be a bit of a hyperbole. In HT, I spend about 500k per run in pots and meso guard costs, and warriors and buccs typically spend no more than 3x that. That means I save at most 1m in mesos per run, which is nowhere near enough to be able to pop an apple and still come up on top. 1 "free" apple every ~180 minutes also wouldn't be anywhere near enough for us to catch up. I feel that it's also a little difficult to use pot savings as a selling point when one could just as validly tell someone to play an NL if they want to spend a lot less on pots.

I would push back slightly on this to say that warriors would be just about as close to reaching their uninterrupted dummy dpm as shads given their 90% stance (and perhaps buccs with their pseudo stance and demo iframes), as much as people like to claim it's a scam . End game shads would have an effective avoid rate of around 82-85%, which is of course less than stance. With respect to stuns, there is only one relevant place I can think of where stuns cannot be effortlessly avoided and that is during statue phase of PB, where shads suffer their nate's lack of range.

With regards to cancels, I believe most people grossly overstate the increase in dpm from charging nate during cancels. Outside of PB body and niche content like nib where DR/cancels are spammed non-stop, charged nates will generally only be executed once every 2-3 minutes at most on average, and with a charged nate being a net increase of about ~750k damage over an uncharged nate, the overall dpm contribution of a charged nate is reduced to roughly 250-375k. Then there's still the matter of having to time the release of nate; whereas other classes can continue attacking during a cancel just as it comes off, shads have to wait to ascertain whether the cancel is off yet, which is typically enough time for other classes to squeeze in an additional attack. All of this would also be contingent on your party even having a bishop to dispel you if you're doing a boss that seals (which I often didn't in PB) and there may be additional time delay with having to wait for a dispel. Then there's still the issue of autopot occasionally failing while you're in dark sight and forcing you to exit to pot up, and also the inability to use the fifth hit of nate at HT. All in all, I expect the dpm contribution of a charged nate to be less than 200k at most bosses.

Personally, I think a ~5% damage buff would be enough, or maybe just SE being coded to affect nate lines (I hear Davi is quite the miracle worker so I'm sure he'd be able to manage). I also don't think shads should be stronger than warriors fully-buffed. As for not needing any party buffs to do optimal dpm, I just can't see that as being much of a plus when said optimal dpm is only better than mages.

All in all, shads are indeed a cool class with smooth gameplay. I just think it could use a little help, and if not in the damage direction, then at least further in the support or personal utility direction (#MakePickpocketGreatAgain). Just my two cents .

 

I can testify and say that in a 80-90 min 6man I use at most 300-350 honsters and 1.1k grilled cheese as a warrior. Tops out to no more than 1.5m for 2 runs on average.

 

Make assassinate like bucc's barrage: add post-cast delay (i.e. no need for dark sight but can't spam) so you have to use Nate+BStep

 

Gurk Y'all shads who "yearn for a little bit more" annoy me lol. I wanted to straighten the skewed narrative from the original poster, not dig into the weeds on whether we're warranted a 5% damage boost. Even if we are, that's a pretty insignificant amount that's not very noticeable, I don't think +400k dpm makes this class any more worth playing than it is now. Asking for a 5% damage boost is like complaining that you didn't get a 100% on the exam you got a 98% on.

I've said I wish SE affected nate lines too because it benefits everyone else, but think about what that complaint really is. Y'all need to let it go and stop fixating on the numbers. 5% is a rounding error bruh, it's somebody brb'ing for 20 seconds during a boss run to get the door or take a call or rant a tad too much about their weekend between attacks...

What I meant to wrap up better was how the shad benefits stack up together. When you look at all of what our build has (low washing, low pot spend, top grinding, smoothest play, smokescreen, non-reliance on any buffs), it makes decent sense that we have the lowest uninterrupted DPM. An argument could be made that it should be bucc for all of the utility and perks they have, but this isn't some clear imbalance that's begging for a correction. It's just the result of dudes looking at fully optimized numbers too hard, which underrates the impact of our perks and the intangibles that don't show up on charts. I don't think there's hard data to support increasing shad damage, we're low-tier for damage when it comes to real bossing but we're definitely still in the mix. DPM testing exists, but I've also whited lvl 200s (how they let me white the bean) who are more stacked than me too many times to be fluke.

I never liked that balance discussions always assume "ideal conditions," it's impractical to look at things only in that lens. I understand why the discussions go that way, but overall perfect conditions are present much less than suggested by those who are vocal in complain-focused forum threads. Similar to judging a class' value only by its dummy DPM, it's just not a holistic picture. Even runs that start out A1 often don't end that way, I don't think balance changes should be so dictated by those measurements. If you have the luxury of having ideal conditions every time you boss, that's peachy, but projecting it as a given to support why shads deserve a damage boost isn't very convincing.

In bossing, shads are able to play a game of iframes unlike any other class because of our skills (insane cumulative miss rate + boomstep to attack while dodging or moving + nate rush or assaulter to attack while repositioning). You know the very small moves and keypress timings we can make to rarely stop doing damage while others are knockbacked, repositioning, or stunned, and how it gives us an edge. The warriors who are tanking in order to attack uninterrupted are suffering in pot spend instead, and I don't think 5x is hyperbole at a lot of 155+ bosses.

Across the whole spectrum of bossing, I think there more situations than less that allow our "value" to even out enough against other low-middle tier attackers than people want to see. We're the best starter-attacker to make in the game, and that matters a lot too.

 

Shads are the cooler, bossing friendly, hp washing friendly mage equivalents. They're fine where they are.

 

To be fair to Gurk, this is closer to complaining you didn't get a D- when you get an F lol

 

joota lol true. I meant it more like 100% = staff placed shads right on the money, and 98% = they got it damn close. Poor delivery

People love picking apart and exploiting that 2% (they always find it) like it's the change they need to finally be at peace with a class. Things are fine -w-

 

You guys are missing the point of this thread. Just #MakePickpocketGreatAgain

 

I think this discussion is highlighting the philosophy of when a class should or even needs to be balanced. Personally I think it comes down to whether there are solid reasons I would recommend this class to someone based on their preferences, and there are absolutely reasons to play shad over any other class. In fact I think the only class right now that I wouldn't recommend outside of personal attachment is the humble Paladin, which is when I'd say a class needs to be buffed. Sure, there is certainly merit to giving shads a little boost. But I think the fundamental disagreement here is about how aggressively some of us may spread their dissatisfaction with playing the class.

To elaborate on some of Tim's points as well as share my own experience, one of the nicest things about playing shads is being basically the most self reliant attacker. I've spent my entire career self funded with no mage to my name. Although I'm not some legendary top tier shad, I've never felt forced to make a mage just to keep up in any way. Aside from that, shads are also very flexible with being able to comfortably slot into any party composition in any bossing scenario.

People can downplay the benefits of shads by just saying other classes do it better. NLs have low pot costs as well while doing more damage. Mages farm better. Warriors cleave better. Buccs have more useful party support. But that's the thing about being a jack of all trades, shads are the only ones that have ALL of that. Not to mention having the highest durability in the game. And sure it doesn't technically matter if the end goal is simply to not die, which all classes can do. But let's acknowledge that it's a pretty damn nice perk.

Different classes are just good at different things, and I don't even mean that in a "everyone's special" kind of way. That's part of the reason why many of us have started to multiclient more. As one of the 200 shads who is putting more focus into levelling my sair, I actually enjoy having access to both classes, given that they're both good for basically completely opposite reasons. Here I am with my shad's client tucked in the corner, casually forgetting to MG and it not even mattering, because I'm too distracted crying over my broken boat like it's the Going Merry.

At the end of the day, there are reasons to play shad, just as there are reasons to play other classes. Just because those reasons aren't the right one for you, doesn't make the class broken.