Why class balance sucks.

Maybe I'm just not as experienced in CWKPQ, but I thought 4-man CWKPQ was the norm with two on cleave anyways. Are you able to open all the boxes as a 3-man? If not, then wouldn't going 4-man speak true to your statement that faster runs = higher EV?

 

u compared shads to heroes, the no.1 class from the bottom. LOL.
the reason y u dont see much heroes talking about class balance for it is becos most of them re-rolled to another class ya.

 

It's becoming increasingly clearer to me that you are actually having a much more difficult time incorporating other people's opinions because you refuse to see it from their perspective. Many of the people who have commented on your post are long time community members with many high level characters that bring very valid points. However you easily dismiss everything they say because you can "easily debunk them" when your arguments "debunking" them can easily just come down to a difference of opinion.

This post is an OPINION. At no point would I say it's a comprehensive breakdown of the state of balancing. I would be careful saying things like this because your opinion does NOT equal the current state of class balance. I would leave that up to the actual balance team and in fact encourage you to apply - we have a very rigorous application process and are always in need of new balance team members!

You know what else can raise awareness AND help cause change? A suggestion thread, with actual suggestions on how to improve the shadower class backed by numbers and data driven decision making along with an explanation how that rework would tie into their identity! Not a thread where you tell everyone their opinion is wrong while your opinion is somehow correct and based in fact. Both are opinions.

This thread is like saying "oranges are objectively worse than apples because they have less nutritional value" while everyone else says "yeah but apples still have merit, they are delicious, make good juice and are nice and crunchy" while you continuously say "yeah but those things don't matter because the only thing that actually matters when discussing why a fruit is good is their nutritional value".

If you look at it with such an attitude then I do not believe that this thread will go anywhere. If you would actually like change to happen please do as I suggested above and make a suggestion thread with numbers and data instead of just trying to prove how everyone else is misinformed about oranges and apples.

 

You've already admitted to rerolling to nl from shad.

Checkmate

 

Its funny how people focus so much on the direct DPM of a class. Shadowers are indeed not the topdog in single-target nor in cleave on their own. However, their kit makes them versatile, they can adjust to what happens in the situation.

Some examples to illustrate the versatility:
Shads in JC go from single-target, to 4-target cleave, 3-target cleave, 2-target cleave and back to single-target without issue. On top of that their nate will always hit the oldest target in range, aka JC himself. They can cleave zakum arms and single-target the main bodies. They can cleave 4 parts of HT compared to 3 for heroes/DKs. They can cleave the bosses in CWK, or deal with the mage boss.

Now with that done, your claim shads will always be worse than NLs. This is not true in multiple bosses, but most obviously in bosses with weapon cancels. While your NL buddies are throwing stars at it hitting 1`s, the shads charge nate and hit (near-)cap lines with ease. This is why shads are great in zak, nibergen and krex. Also applies to CWK mage boss when theres no active dispelling and probably some other situation I forgot.
In these cases the gear doesnt matter, the NL will (usually) lose. Besides that, if the SE dc`s the shads get to laugh at the crying NL, if the NL doesnt instantly leave that is. Yes NLs, have toptier single-target DPM, but theyre bottomtier the second they dont have SE (aka liability ).

I recall you mentioned a shad needs to be (close to) lvl 200 and/or have insane gear to 1hit ML5. This is not entirely true but yes, shads do struggle a bit more than warriors here due to the wide range of damage lines. For example, my own shads boomstep lines can vary from 29k to 55k at lvl 188. I will be 1hitting them pretty much 100% on a cider, but without that the large range affects the %. Heroes and DKs have a much more stable damage resulting in higher minimal and lower max lines.

Onto my point about direct DPM. Yes, the direct DPM of shads isnt the highest, but still respectable enough. What people forget is factors like avoid, dodging from shifter, low potcosts and an important one, raising the DPM of the party while simultaneously reducing potcosts with smoke.
Avoid and shifter make shads DPM more stable and close to dummy DPM than some other classes. The low potcost is just a tradeoff for that really. The smoke reduces the potcosts and raises the overall DPM in the run, indirect damage that the shad is almost never credited for, but certainly helps. Not to mention smoke creates a safe timewindow for ressing, when fragile classes need it and cannot be ressed otherwise (or has a very high risk of instadeath).

So long story short, classes should not be judged only by DPM, cost of gear or the mule-able skills. Theyre often more than that, which has significant value too. Judge classes by ALL of their traits, play what you love and respect peoples choices. Shads are more than sed, archers are more than SE and buccs are more than SI.

 

I don't see any math buddy

 

Yea i failed math class...Sorry xD Jokes aside, numbers arent everything

 

Sounds like you keep being hyperfocussed on the direct DPM. Also sounds like you havent ran alot with good shads, or your own shad is uh...lacking.

From my own experience, but also from other shads, shads CAN and DO white over NLs in these bosses on a regular basis regardless of level gap and gear. So does it put them above the NL threshold? Yes. Just to put some more detail to it, My shad at 185 has whited a well-geared NL (191 iirc) on HT 2nd prehead and HT mainbody right head. Ive also whited zak numerous of times regardless of the party composition. You can still disagree with me on this, but my experiences and those of fellow shads in my BL/Alliance dont lie. I would agree Buccs are absolutely strong af and uh...much more useful than NLs

Nowhere did I say smoke beats those, I merely stated what it DID do. Wether you have the buffs you mentioned or not, it will still have a positive effect, reduce potcosts, reduce the risk of dieing (which would be 0 DPM btw) and safe some otherwise unsafe-able people.

Yep, I dont disagree. Shads have iframes, they have "stance by avoid" due to being hit so little theyre rarely knocked back. Not sure what you mean with range in this case.

Your argument that warriors are much much better than shads is solely based on the cleave DPM. In terms of potcosts theyre incredibly expensive. Yes, I base that on my own experience too since i have a 176 Hero (retired, for my currently 188 shad). Heroes arent bad, but personally I'd take a shad over them anytime.

Just like Mirrors mentioned earlier, you seem to not be looking for people to change your mind. You are refusing to accept any reasoning that doesnt fit your current opinion. So I'll say it just to make you happy, NLs are best class.

Spoiler: For the rest, read this

NO THEYRE NOT!! #ShadsBestClass -Washes keyboard with soap to erase the nightmare of saying NLs are best class-

 

yes, but it's a good way to get surface thoughts prior to a suggestion. personally though, i would have went balls deep and drafted scenario + math + testing and straight to the suggestion pool.

also Zorele , i'd recommend adding more sentence spacing for easier readability (for your earlier posts)

+ if you want to help balance, i also recommend getting a test client, spreadsheets ready, some c̶o̶k̶e̶ ̶z̶e̶r̶o̶ ̶p̶i̶l̶l̶s̶ coffee and start writing out a draft.

i think this discussion is getting pretty saturated by solely focusing on the shadower class despite the topic being fairly global in scope. it's easier to evaluate an idea when it's finished, which also coincidences with the way mLegends releases balance patches.

 

I am gravely concerned for the lack of shadower specific cosmetic suggestions.

I would like to share two.

1. Allow us to change shifter's face expression to one of the default F1-F7 faces. (Bonus points if we can use cash shop expressions too).

• F2 is the most important face for shadowers. If you main shadower, your entire look must revolve around it or people will not take you seriously (you will not be accepted to runs).
  • My current F2 face, it's absolutely unacceptable. Go away!
  • My F1 face, it's aesthetically pleasing. Invite this player to all content.

2. Change Pickpocket to Shadow Partner.

• Shadow partner is objectively the best drip in MapleStory. Both thief classes must be allowed to use it.
• Visual change ONLY it will still behave as pickpocket.
  • Our class severely lacks any shadow skills despite our name.
  • Shadow partner will still maintain the theme of pickpocket. How?
    • The skill "Steal" uses our shadow to rob an item from a mob.
      
    • "Meso Explosion" uses our shadow to explode mesos.
      
    • Naturally, "Shadow Partner" uses our shadow to steal mesos.

EDIT: typos

Spoiler: some quick math

100% guaranteed that some players will love it.

 

Buccs being op af doesn't mean shads suck though. Both pirates are extremely strong but are still among the least popular classes. Imo a large part is due to unfamilarity, so I think making them stronger at least gives people incentive to try them out, which is not a problem for shadowers.

I feel that you are overly concerned about whether your shadower is whiting a boss. Is that really necessary? I feel that shadowers are not gatekept from a single boss in the game due to how versatile they are. This can't be said about almost every other class (especially NLs which are heavily dependent on party composition).

 

Whats the issue with your 'underperformance' if you still get into every boss run without issue?

SE reliance is definitely a con... have you seen players who smega for an hour "R>se for zak"?