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How to solve washing, attracting new players and having fun while retaining veteran achievements

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by zydeco, Dec 16, 2021.

  1. Myrosb
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    Myrosb Brown Teddy

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    I totally agree with what your saying here!

    The HP and MP tokens can be equally as time-consuming. The issue is preserving the "difficult" side of current HP washing methods. What is it about the current HP washing methods that is difficult that is desired to exist in a new HP washing method? The tokens could fit all three criteria of what you think most players would agree too. I think being able to wash a character while still being able to play it is considered more enjoyable to me. But you are right in that there should be difficulty to it, its just the interpretation of what is considered difficult, and I'd argue that in the case of HP washing what difficult about it is the time-consuming nature of it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    There are quite a few reasons beyond the time-consuming nature of HP washing.

    Time/NX Restraint:
    The first part of HP washing (and hyperwashing) is the massive NX restraint it has, which historically, was limited by daily votes limited to one account. This created a pseudo time-gate for washing projects. With the release of multivoting, NX ticket drops, AP reset events, and more, it's gotten easier and easier to surpass this natural time restriction. It's never been easier to wash a character to an X goal, especially with things like +HP gear (Monster Book Ring, BFC, etc.), and it seems like it's getting easier and easier, yet people still continue to complain about HP washing due to its other reasons listed below.

    Mage/Resource Dependent:
    Minimal washing is fairly easy, but I'd argue that it's not less NX dependent. In addition, since hyperwashing has become normalized, people feel like they need to go overboard with longer 400+ base int mp washing projects. While just a few years ago this wasn't the case, the normalization of these cultures and its foothold in the bossing communities isn't something to really ignore. Sure, you can make a 9.5k hp NL, but would you really be happy with it if you began working on it in 2022?

    So, while it is possible to solo grind with a 200 base INT ranged attacker up to level 140+, it's also not necessarily NX efficient to do so. This has normalized the practice of buying/self-leeching 300+ base INT attackers. Since this either requires mesos or a mage, this means one would be required to play a mage/bishop first or already have one on hand in order to enter into these heavier washing projects. This makes washing seem like a much more resource dependent task, since grinding on a 300 base-INT attacker is pretty much impossible, and you'd be better off self-leeching or buying leech.

    This is why the whole "make a mage," and "I don't want to play mage" discussion always happens between newer players.

    (OP already touched base on this issue and didn't want to talk about leeching, but IMO leeching and HP washing go hand in hand)

    Long and Boring (by design):
    It's boring. Most people don't have the patience to work towards a goal that's set back 1 year. Most gen Z gamers played games that were structured around instant gratification by design. Unfortunately, games that require patience and long-term commitment aren't really suited for them, and MapleLegends is just that. Changing it to be faster or more accessible would only flood the server with attackers rather than funneling them through the beginner classes (warriors, shadowers, mages). This is probably my main concern with any suggestion that would speed up washing and allow for any new player to start any new class - it's by design that squishy/glass cannon characters aren't given instant access to all the end-game content, and there needs to be a natural disadvantage/barrier for entry to those classes. Completely removing washing or homogenizing the experience in reaching end-game for all classes would be an extremely bad move for class balance.

    Unfortunately, the problem is that a new players don't understand these nuances. Their first questions will always be "Why can't I play x now? Why does it require me to deal with HP washing, leeching, etc.?"

    --

    Personally, I think the current HP washing mechanic is fine and makes sense. Unpopular opinion, but I think new players should have to struggle and learn through trial and error. Kimmy touched base on this issue in the EOY thread as well, but whether these early mistakes should continue to be permanently punishing or not is up for debate. However, regarding HP washing, I do think that the playstyles that are involved with washing could be made better. Should HP washing have a natural time/NX restraint? Absolutely. Should HP washing have to be mage dependent? For that point, I'd say no.

    OP referenced my thread about leeching as the main culprit to server woes, but they failed to mention the second aspect of my suggestion in allowing for base INT to be factored into the damage formula. This, along with a nerf on leech, would require players to play through the class disadvantages - they could choose either to hyperwash more, or they could choose to tone down their base INT for class stats and have a balanced grinding experience through the first 140 levels of the game. The problem is that currently leeching allows people with all of the above (excess NX, mages/mesos, sweat factor) to constantly pump out multiple hyperwashed characters, and this ages the server while further polarizing the newer and older players. New players don't see anybody in their training maps because all of the old players are working on their alternative attackers via leech, so they're all hanging on a rope at the low level leeching maps.

    We've seen plenty of suggestions regarding HP washing, and this one with cash shop +hp/mp potions isn't really new. At first glance, I think if this were to be implemented, it'd simply shift the problem to be focused purely on the time/NX restraint for class balance, and with enough time, it'd naturally shift the average HP for every class. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good thing or not. The problem is there is a 30k hp ceiling, and I'd guess the median HP for an end-game attacker is getting higher and higher. This suggestion would only guarantee the average HP to shift higher and higher as the server ages (not that this isn't already the case).
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  3. Joolahn
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    Joolahn Dark Stone Golem

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    Firstly, I really like this concept!

    This is a great point, for which I want to suggest a change regarding the difficulty of excessive HP/MP washing: progression requirements.

    For example, instead of (OR along with) meso-based tiers, include participation requirements. For example, HP tokens cap at 7K HP, then require the following to increases the cap:

    Boss Participation (values are examples and may not be balanced):
    Defeat Ravana........... +10 HP cap increase (+20 HP max)
    Defeat Papulatus........ +10 HP cap increase (+20 HP max)
    Defeat Krexel............ +20 HP cap increase (+30 HP max)
    Defeat Scar/Targa...... +20 HP cap increase (+30 HP max)
    Defeat Zakum........... +30 HP cap increase (+40 HP max)
    Defeat Horntail.......... +50 HP cap increase (+60 HP max)
    ...and so on for other bosses

    PQ Participation (max +10 all boss HP increase amount):
    ONLY ACHIEVABLE ONCE PER CHARACTER
    Complete 10x HPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x KPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x LPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x EPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x LMPQ....... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x OPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x PPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x MPQ......... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x CWKPQ.... +1 all boss HP increase amount
    Complete 10x HPQ........ +1 all boss HP increase amount
    (Players over a PQ's level limit can buy the bonus, similar to Monster Cards)

    Participation Requirements:
    This piece is important to prevent boss-muling. I'm not sure what is or isn't possible, but here is my suggestion (values are estimates):
    - Client runs an underlying DPM function at boss-spawn to measure the player's damage output. Upon defeating the boss, if the player's damage output is at least 50% of the average for the class & level, participation is granted.

    Hopefully this will liven up PQs as well!


    edit: evened out spacing & lowered boss participation HP cap increases.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    If the cap is 'shared' with traditional HP washing, I fully support your idea. For eg, a character that has washed enough MP to obtain potential +7k MP will not be allowed to use any more HP tokens
     
  5. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    KimberlyKimberly what u think about add some hp to wedding rings or add scroll like the event one to wedding ring but that only raise the hp?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  6. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I would say there are plenty of us that are not like that, there at least a decent chunk of us that want to play because we want to relive the nostalgia moments of going to different places, use different skills you learn in 1st, 2nd, 3rd job. Not all of us just want a level 150 character for instant gratification but want to use the skills we remember to level along the way.

    I hate leeching and don’t want to do it because I want to level my archer through killing low level then mid level then high level monsters, isn’t that what all games should be about? Maybe unpopular opinion here but Anyone saying leeching isn’t a fundamental flaw of the old maplestory game design should be in the bucket of vac hackers that just want a high number without playing the game.

    Sure if you want the gatekeeping requirement then put out something like “new game+” mode where once you reach level 150 on mage you can create an late game viable archer without washing. I just want to level my character as the game intended (without int in archer similar to how mages don’t add dex for no reason), use all the job kills instead of only using 4th job skills at 140+, go to the vast selection of maps to explore the world.
     
  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I think you're misunderstanding my post. I'm in no way defending mage/leech story. I'm just listing it as a pre-requirement for current HP washing discussions since it is generally what is required for one to be able to wash. If it wasn't included, it would be an incomplete picture for what composites the entire HP washing experience in today's game, and any change implemented that doesn't take into account magestory/leeching would be technically making the whole experience easier.

    The big dilemma is that new players expect to have access to squishy characters along with survivability as one package, which doesn't make sense - they're supposed to be squishy by design and have been given range and higher damage in compensation. In GMS, squishy characters were restricted from certain bosses by design. With the discovery of HP washing and Neckson's greed, things opened up more over time, but that's well past our v0.62 limitations. Giving all classes innate survivability takes away from class balance from warriors, shadowers, and mages.
     
  8. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Doesn’t HP wash “takes away from class balance from warriors, shadowers, and mages”?

    I am in the camp that dps characters have a more risky bossing style compare to tanks in exchange for damage. So if a tank can take 3 shots before using a potion then dps can only take 1 as well as having to reposition to dodge some one hit KO attacks. But I don’t want dps classes to completely gets locked out of some bosses due to undodgeable AND unsurvivable attacks.

    Throwing out some long term balance suggestions here: bosses need to have elemental weakness to make mages viable while undodgeable attacks gets “spread” between tanks and dps so tanks can “tank” the blunt of it, this makes tanks required in the boss runs too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Yes it does. Except current HP washing methods on a thief or archer take longer than it does on a warrior, shadower, or mage thereby creating a natural progression. A new player that chooses a ranged attacker as their starter will be penalized from access to end-game bossing content. Most players figure this out by 2nd or 3rd job and switch to naturally tankier classes to avoid this conflict. More savvy players will choose a mage and work on their ranged attacker simultaneously as it's the most efficient route.

    By creating a system where everyone starts on the same page and can progress at the same rate, it shifts the class balance towards the more meta classes entirely.
     
  10. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Then the boss mechanics needs to change to make 6DPS parties not viable instead of just make a soft requirement of having a 4th job mage. In my opinion it’s a horrible bandaid fix as it removes to playability of dps characters. At least do something where once I get a lvl 140 mage I can unlock a way to actually play my dps character to 4th job. (And no, playing a no int archer to 120 then leech another archer to 120 doesn’t develop the same feeling as bossing with the character you trained to get there)

    the goal of the “restructure” should be:
    1. Allow people to play and develop their main characters instead of hanging on a rope until 4th job, especially if they actually want to play and grow with their characters.

    2. make tanky classes viable by learning how other MMOs use the “tank” archetype, which is requiring them in raids to “protect” the dps, as ms is more simple i was using “soaking” damage to make them useful during boss runs.
     
  11. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    It’d be nice to include perma beginners to those calculations too, since all content is supposed to be possible with HP washing.

    By gating HP gains with Bosses, this would hinder overall hp growth for perma beginners, while fast pushing everyone else towards 30k hp.

    Or multimage meso farming to buy 23k hp worth of PQ HP cap increases

    Or J > HP/Exp Zak leech runs (won’t roll)

    Tbh, bossing(i only did up to lvl 50 boss range)/bosshoeing(i imagine to be interesting) as perma beginner is pretty fun… although 7k hp is a bit low cap, 8k-9k seems a bit comfortable range to cap.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Joolahn
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    Joolahn Dark Stone Golem

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    Honestly, with consideration for oddjobs (str mage, woodsmen, etc), the participation mechanic would be impossible. The only solution I can imagine is to have both regular HP washing (to account for oddjobs) and HP tokens.

    I think the PQ Particpation was misunderstood here. The PQ participation increases the HP bonuses you get when you defeat bosses and do not award any HP cap increases themselves.

    Players will not be able to leech/mule boss runs as they will need to meet participation requirements (damage minimum or otherwise).

    How come 8k-9k? I suggested 7K HP as the initial cap because it is just over the minimum HP requirement to fight HT with HB. This means players can access content up to Horntail without any extra work other than vote NX. For further end-game bossing, you need to participate in the mid-game bossing content.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    I... i see. So perma beginners would still have to HP wash through regular means to reach 30k hp still?
    • 7k hp from tokens, then use 400 Base INT to reach 30k hp by level 150 with MP Washing
    • this is as bad as using 550 Base INT to reach 30k hp by level 150 currently, MP washing every level up from level 30
    Since they wouldnt be able to hit the Minimum Damage Threshold of the stronger Bosses that gives participation HP, unless they use more time to reach it.


    I thought we'd do away with INT-Washing completely if we're to use pure HP/MP Tokens without weird caps and participation requirements
    • Why gate HP increases?
    • HP Washing isn't gated now... unless having HIGH HP = bad?
    • High HP =/= Power Creep of High WA/TMA
    • High HP = access to content, regardless of jobs


    I suggest 8-9k hp, just in case the HT group only has 1x Dark Knight, but multiple parties. Or if the group cant find a DK.
     
  14. Joolahn
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    Joolahn Dark Stone Golem

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    Using HP tokens would retain the NX-time-requirement for washing, however the challenge of the process would be lost. Why even play the character when you can just vote on an account for a year or two, then log on and HP token yourself to 30K HP and/or MP? Then challenge/difficulty provided with washing is important. The issue with the current INT-washing meta is that it is not only difficult, but also encourages gameplay that is unwanted (leechstory, etc).

    Having high HP is not bad, it is a privilege and earned luxury - and it is extremely gated! Even for just HT, wash-dependent classes will require either serious funding or long-term int handicaps while dealing with a shortening level-limit to finish washing. Even though these aren't functional gates, they are still gates preventing full access to HP washing.

    I agree that high HP allow access to content and that it is not as devious as WA/MA, but it is still a form of power creep. And why not provide a challenge that encourages gameplay with this mechanic, rather than incentivize NX hoarding for effortless, broken, mega-washed characters?

    Yeah, I'd like to allow oddjobs to have access to full HP washing as well. I just haven't been able to think of a fair approach for them yet.
     
  15. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Seems okay... for Mixed APRs + HP/MP Tokens... but the issue still remains for Washing + Leeching

    How much do you think the Vote Cash should be for the HP/MP Tokens?

    Since... APRs would still be necessary for HP/MP washing anyways, by what you're suggesting. Would Vote Cash for APRs be changed too?

    What's your definition of power creep? Since power = attack and magic attack, rather than HP.

    Having Mixed Wash + Tokens, is still incentivizing the hoarding of Vote Cash + Leeching.
    • Will need to buy APRs + Tokens = worse calculative formulas needed to figure out total Vote Cash.
    • Also, who really wants to always HAVE to use DK anyways, when an extra Bucc would be better
    Also, locking away HP Increases behind Bossing, may push people to want to leech faster past 2nd and 3rd jobs to start Bossing Sooner.
    • most likely on their second character or alt accounts


    Just set the Tokens on a % curve for the amount of HP/MP gained that's similar to Total Vote Cash needed per Nise's Washing Formulation Guide, balanced for each Jobbed/Jobless and be done with it. No need to complicate it.
    • no cap
    • no bossing min dmg req
     
  16. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    There's absolutely zero reason a beginner should need or want 30k hp. I feel like you include them well enough
     
  17. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Vote Cash Worth to reach 30k hp for Buccs/Thief and Archer/Beginners:

    Buccs = 5m vote cash = 2 years on average


    Thief/Archer = 10m vote cash = 4 years on average
    • Sairs = 9m-10m vote cash = 3-4 years on average since they get only a little bit more Fresh/Stale HP compared to Thief/Archers

    Beginners = 14m vote cash = 5.5 years on average
    • Mages = +16m vote cash (estimates). Stale HP washing for mages is 6hp; also need to MP wash again to get back the MP they used for Stale HP Washing too.

    Better to use the % curve of Total Vote cash per Job/Jobless based on Washing formula for the HP/MP Token Prices.
    • Example: if a Sair wanted 10k hp, then they'd wait that many years worth of Vote Cash.

    This is also something the Staff was directly saying, to remove the Penalties of Messing Up when Washing. If a person messes up on washing, then they'd have wasted X amount of years worth of Vote Cash, or end up not reaching their HP goals.
    • Washing Calc is already not for everyone.
    • Early Tokens + Late Washing = Leeching to Bosses Faster + potential to mess up and trash character + quitting
    • Early Washing + Late Tokens = Leeching like usual to reach Bosses Faster

    Having any form of Washing at all = potential to mess up + leeching heavy = players getting sad, then quit (this isn't what anyone wants either)


    upload_2022-1-3_16-12-25.png

    upload_2022-1-3_16-12-44.png

    upload_2022-1-3_16-13-32.png
     
  18. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    B > Pink Bean Chair (like a zhelm buyer LOL, if questline is opened of course)

    Zero reason yes, although should be allowed to do so and give it a try.
     
  19. Joolahn
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    Joolahn Dark Stone Golem

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    I only mentioned keeping AP reset washing to allow oddjobs to still wash. I would prefer to have AP reset washing gone.

    As OP said, this would require calculations for each class based on their own washing formulas.

    Again, I am primarily suggesting getting rid of APR in favor of HP/MP tokens with gameplay requirement gates.

    Power creep doesn't mean literal damage... it's a term that describes new content that outstrips the effectiveness, use, or relevance of previous content. With your suggestion, the ONLY requirement for 30K HP is hoarding vote NX, no effort required. Within due time, 30K HP goes from an extreme rarity to standard. By definition, that is 100% power creep.

    Yes... the hoarding of Vote cash is not the issue. The issue was the lack of challenge behind reaching extremely high HP.

    Again, this completely misses the issue I am trying to solve. No one will need to actually play their character for their character to get max HP with your requirements. I'd love simplicity, but not if it makes for a totally broken HP mechanic.
     
  20. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Certain points have a possibility to occur.

    Gameplay requirement gates are good, although adding in lower level bosses in basic maps would be better.
    - similar to the inclusion of PQ bosses, with HP increases.

    Yes, removing APRs completely would be nice too. Although the gameplayer requirement gates should be lowered if there's a Token cap. It can then allows anyone who fights any boss, to slowly raise their caps.

    If high HP needs to be a challenge, then either APRs need to stay, or the gameplay requirement gates need to be lowered to include area bosses too.
    • HP increases for fighting basic area bosses can be adjusted based on Character Level, could be another mechanic


    Either way, I think it'd be nice to be inclusive, and maintain the opportunity for players (such as beginners) to reach 30k hp, even if it is unnecessary.
     

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