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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Isn't a well geared hero able to full clear before respawn?
    I don't believe this is going to bring that much to zak/jc, since you don't have range to hit more than 3 arms, and JC summon 2/3 mobs, am i right about JC?
     
  2. mjk
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    mjk Master Chronos

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    dont think that would change anything outside minor QoL at 7f (at lower levels) and clearing spawns at cwk / jc.

    the challegne with cleave classes is that when optimizing essentially all meaningful content the optimal roster is made up of solely single target classes
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    just give an endgame boss that has cleave in the meta. and everyone will complain how OP hero is and it requires nerfing
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Case in point: the marksman.
    Before PB release: largely ignored and considered by no one to be a top tier class. 200-300k scrolls.
    After PB release: omg OPOP bms in shambles nerf snipe buff bm

    Amazing how a once-a-week boss can singlehandedly flip the perception of a class.
    Just make auf haven a cleave-centric boss, ezpz. And maybe buff HP of HT wings/arms.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    to add on, heroes are considered one of the best class before HT meta shifted to single target
     
  6. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    If they could make wings more annoying to rangeds while increasing arms HP, a mix between cleavers and rangeds are going to be necessary to do a efficient HT, the true balance is when every class is necessary and isn't just a luxury.

    That's actually hard to happen, what they can add? Chaos Zakum? Mega Scarga? Blackmage? :confused:
    The whole game have focus on single target damage, this isn't a pre-bbb feature.
    While i agree with you, there's a lack of cleave content, there's no point in asking for this addition, we don't have these cleave bosses in any version of maplestory, all i can think is changing AufHaven clone mechanics, so cleave can be necessary, but even in the AufHaven expedition, there's 2 single target bosses before her, even in zakum the majority of the run is single target.
    While the marksman point makes sense and it really happenned this way, marksman always had this interaction with PB, and it is a single target class+SE, it's not the same, maplestory don't have bosses where heroes shine in later versions
     
  7. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I'm all for chaos zak, if kimmy wishes to add them.
    other v62 servers have chaos zak as well so, its not technically impossible.

    the whole game focuses on 30k hp, single target bosses, and the chase for only the sweatiest meta.
    anything less then the best goes into the trash cans.
    don't even mention heroes. this is why some BMs are re-rolling into NLs/Corsairs.

    of course, not everyone thinks this way, but the entire vibe of the forum feels exactly like this when comes to any form of argument.

    which is why, i believe cleave content is the only long term fix. by being the best in a relevant content, heroes will never be replaced, just like NLs. Pushing for single target is merely a bandaid, no different from reducing AP reset cost to aid washing - people will only ask for more because they do less, not because they don't do enough.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Kyshies
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    Kyshies Slimy

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    Maybe I should give it a go I think I have 20b worth of gear? But then value is subjective since your garden variety broken english merchant would tell me my stuff is like 10b combined at best :/
     
  9. OP
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    datahush
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    datahush Red Snail

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    • Great Work Great Work x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. lord kniizer
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    lord kniizer Slime

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    Hope Auf heaven come with a good mechanic with her clones, could included something like pt wipe (kill all pt and end the run automatically) if not kill the clones in a certain amount of time, this will solve 2 things, made cleave relevant cuz if you do not kill the clones in that time, all run is over and "re-introducing a sense of danger that hyper washing has removed from said classes." as kimmy itself want it :cool:
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Ran HT on my Hero for the first time in like 2 years. Was a 12 man and my DPM 45 got cut short by 3 minutes.

    upload_2022-6-17_20-33-6.png

    Re-calculated, it should come out to 6.023m dpm 42. Respectable for a first attempt.

    I was getting 6.4m dpm with Enrage (23 atk) for dummy pre-head dpm, so this is a 94.1% dpm efficiency in relation to my pure single target damage on same wdef, and I bet it gets much, much higher than this. Also, our group decided to go left side first, so my left side cleave was cut short for the far less efficient right side finish.

    Another thing I forgot to consider is dpm inflation when midhead gets cancelled and wings go up. You can get 3 hits with 2-cleave if you're lucky. I'm willing to bet there is timing tech to wait for certain wing animations so you can get 3 brandishes consistently for 2 cleave during mh cancel. Then again, DPM inflation is stupid and only really matters if you are the main cleaver/wing hitter.

    However, I reckon that in a 6-man, my Hero could manage to pull something like 7-7.5m dpm 45 doing mostly head damage, which is pretty respectable. I think lvl 176 NLs with the same amount of funding do less than that.

    There are a lot of small optimizations that distinguish a good hero from a bad one. Making sure you're always hitting your targets is a crucial one, and getting into that position quickly or repositioning quickly when you get kb'd is another.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
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  12. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    a hero's niche is being able to afk/not look at the screen while cleaving cwk bosses
     
  13. Hiimalex
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    Hiimalex Slime

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    dummy cleave
    first: mw20 + rage + echo + SI
    second: mw20 + rage + echo

    both based on starting with max orbs. 141 ST, 21 gloves, 12 cape.
    What do you make of the difference?
     
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Not sure what you're trying to highlight, but my testing was in response to the possibility of dpm efficiency loss in regards to earlier DP caused by left side cleave and suggestions of maybe making combo orb undispellable.

    As for my test, I had SE which inflates my dpm by a few % over yours, so the only comparison we can make is the top line of 21,472,721 adjusted without SE (let's give SE bonus a conservative 3%, correct me if I'm wrong or if you have specific numbers on hand), or 20,847,301. This means that with ~34 more attack (20 levels of AP, 14 atk on gear), your hero was able to output about 1.27m more single target dpm.

    tovv's single target dpm without SE: 6,949,100
    Redapples single target dpm without SE: 8,226,094

    Top-end Hero's single target dpm with SE: ?

    Add 3-4 more attack for 4 levels of SP to max out to 200, add another 16 attack for a perfect timeless nibleheim with +7 on levels and another 8-9 attack for a 10 attack facestomper, and I'm sure you could easily find the hero's single target dummy dpm to over 10m with full buffs (Echo, SE, SI, MW30).

    Also, why don't you post your HT dpm 45s? 8.2m single target dpm is respectable and you could do some serious work on solo left side head cleave in a proper 5 or 6 man.
     
  15. Hiimalex
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    Hiimalex Slime

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    Wasn't necessarily trying to highlight anything in particular. Just wanted to provide some extra numbers for discussion from a hero with "end game" gear to use for comparison.
    I think 3% for SE is pretty conservative enough, although I feel like it's on the higher side but I don't have an SE mule (yet) to test it out myself. Wouldn't mind giving heroes some extra innate crit though :)

    While I would love to have that kind of gear, I guess a discussion across the board is whether it's ever necessary to have a hero that geared? Or how much more "relevant" would it make them to have that vs another class with equivalent gear? Requires a discussion on class identity and options available to excel at either in bossing or farming. I think I've seen some threads on the forum at one point, but not sure if they ever actually got anywhere.

    I didn't post my HT dpm 45s cause I don't have it. Haven't been on a run in awhile. I'm just an old casual player that AFKs in FM.
     
  16. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The reason I bring up that level of funding is because that is what other classes are bringing to the table when they post in those DPM flex threads which in turn is being used to compare to current Hero rankings. Also, I'm just more curious as to how Hero top-end dpm would be affected if anybody's suggestions were implemented.

    When is it ever necessary to have any character that geared? Most people have that level of funding to flex.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Make enrage a party buff with a shorter uptime (maybe 3 or 4 mins) and buff it to 28 or 30 att. This would give parties additional incentive to bring at least 1 hero on boss run instead of a 4th NL.

    I think this would be better than directly buffing hero’s damage since that would make them too OP for cleave content. And it would still leave pally as the #1 melee single target DPS.

    It won’t break the game since there are heartstoppers/apples/gelts which can still be way better than enrage. It would just make heroes a bit more desirable in parties.

    Only main concern is that people might mule enrage, but since it eats up orbs it would at least require some hitting, whereas SE/SI are even easier to mule since those skills don’t need to be charged.

    Also make NT pt 2 cleave centric.

    Thoughts?
     
  18. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    If the goal is to increase Hero single target DPM without touching their cleave damage, this can be accomplished better through other means.

    Buffing enrage will buff Hero single target DPM but it would also buff Hero cleave DPM.

    I posted this in another thread, but I might as well post it here as well:

    The best way of buffing Hero single target DPM is by front-loading some of combo attack's benefit on the initial cast. Right now, when combo attack is initially cast, it increases a Hero's damage by 0%. With fully charged orbs, a Hero's damage is increased by a 1.9 multiplier. This suggestion would make it so that some of the damage increase comes at the initial cast lets call it X%, and max orbs would remain the same at the 1.9 multiplier.

    I know this seems like a meaningless change at first glance, but for those who don't know, casting Panic/Coma as soon as orbs are ready results in a DPM loss for Heroes because these skills reset the orb count to 0. Even though these skills are very strong, the strength of these skills does not out weight the DPM lost by having to rebuild combo orbs. If some of the benefit of combo attack were front loaded onto the initial cast, the amount of DPM lost by resetting orbs would be decreased.

    Example: lets say half of Combo attack's benefit is front-loaded onto the initial cast. This would result in combo attack starting at a 1.45 damage multiplier, and with max orbs it would be the 1.9 damage multiplier. When orbs are used up by Panic/Coma, the multiplier would drop back down to the 1.45 multiplier, versus the 1.0 multiplier currently found on live.

    In the above scenario, half of the damage loss resulting from using Panic/Coma would be mitigated compared to live values.

    The exact % of how much of combo attack to front-load will need to be played around with a bit, but the goal is to eventually have it so that casting Panic as soon as orbs are maxed out would yield optimal Hero single target DPM, and this optimal DPM would be an increase from Hero single target DPM on live but still well below that of Paladin/NL/BM/Sair. The goal is to decrease the gap between these classes, but not to close it completely, as Heroes should retain their identity as a cleaver.

    I favor this solution because it is very easily adjustable and fixable: front-loading more of combo attack will yield higher Hero single target DPM, and if it ends up being too high, dialing back the amount of front-loading will decrease Hero single target DPM.

    Additionally, Hero cleave DPM will remain untouched where it really counts because the break even point between brandish and Coma when Coma starts out-performing brandish occurs somewhere between the 3rd and 4th target. Brandish isn't affected by this change at all, meaning that Hero 3 target cleave DPM would remain as it is on live. Hero 4-6 target cleave would see an increase in DPM, but this would not affect bossing DPM (where it counts) because in bossing scenarios it is already extremely difficult to hit 3 targets, let alone 4-6. This would yield an increase to multi-target training efficiency, and nothing more.

    EDITED FOR ACCURACY
     
  19. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    With the 4th job combo skill maxed, it becomes a 1.9x base multiplier. So Brandish damage is 2.6 * 1.9 per line with maxed counters. With no orbs you can call it a 1.0 multiplier for simplicity. All of this occurs before Sharp Eyes, so 15% of the time you'll end up dealing (2.6 * 1.9) + 1.4 damage in that case. That's the general formulation on how to calculate Hero DPM.

    Much of that math looks like it comes from another server. The general idea is good, but the math behind it is almost entirely wrong information.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    Thank you for correcting those, I've edited the the post for accuracy.

    Does that mean that regardless of target count, brandish always beats out Coma?

    Brandish (3 target): (260x2)*(1.9) x 3 = 2964
    Coma (6 target): (200)*(1.9) x 6 = 2280

    Am I doing the math correctly on that?


    If that's the case, the above suggestion of front-loading combo attack wouldn't affect Hero cleave DPM at all, and would strictly work to increase Hero single target DPM with no unwanted side effects.

    Nvm found the correct formulas.

    Brandish (3 target): (260x2)*(1.9) x 3 = 2964
    Coma (3 target): (200)*(1.9)*(2.5) x 3 = 2850

    Brandish (4 target): (260x2)*(1.9) x 3 = 2964
    Coma (4 target): (200)*(1.9)*(2.5) x 4 = 3800

    So despite my incorrect formulas, the break even point between brandish/coma actually does lie somewhere between the 3rd and 4th target. Lucky coincidence.
     

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