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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    It is ridiculous that you are keep on asking for such numbers over multiple post, and exploiting the lack of answer from the average gamer to proof your point. You want to drive your point that hero sucks because the player sucks, and not because the class itself sucks. It is as good as saying to poor people on the street, work harder plz.
    Why should anyone invest like 20B of gears in order to answer your question? When a player doesn't feel right or not enjoying a class already, even 1b of gear is too much to invest in.

    Anyway for your numbers, you should be asking the balance team and GMs, they can make that 20B geared hero in their test server to test the dpm on whatever boss and dpm you demanded.
     
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm asking for personal opinions which should be free to conjure up. The purpose of the questions is to gauge what people actually expect out of any types of buffs given and whether or not they're reasonable. If I ask someone how much damage they think Heroes can do, it doesn't matter if they're wrong or right because the purpose of the question is to gauge sentiment and understanding.

    For example, if someone says they believe Heroes should do 8m single target dummy dpm and I show that they can already do that, but they still complain about needing Hero buffs, isn't there a contradiction in the reality and demands? It seems like people in this thread don't even know what to expect out of Heroes, yet they're finding reasons to complain about it.

    I'm asking Heroes because it seems like Heroes are the ones complaining about the current status quo. Staff have no reason to make any changes unless specific demands are made, and it doesn't help that any hero main is refusing to cooperate. The only people that are giving actual suggestions are non-Hero mains. I guess that it's not that big of a deal and Heroes should just be left to die then?

    upload_2022-6-8_12-3-35.png
     
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  3. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Some classes deserves more damage than other, hero, pally, nl and corsair don't bring any utility to party, so they should be top tier damage classes, if heroes deal less damage than an archer in ̷a̷n̷y̷ some bosses they just suck, its not like cleaving is such a op mechanic to compensate this.
    And it's not like funding 20b+ in gear make they deal more damage than other classes,unless they're very weak, other ones can deal more damage with much less, why someone with that insane amount of funding is going to choose such a bad class? :pompus:
    Archers and Buccaners are a good choice instead of NL's and Corsair because they can bring utility to everyone, and while doing more damage than heroes, no one needs to spend 30 hours thinking in solutions, some of then don't have time for that or can't think in anything great, but showing your disapprove for your class current state is completely fine.
    B..but Heroes is too easy to play! Well, NL is too, and it's not like maplestory have such complicated mechanics lol

    And i really want to know why you keep insulting hero playerbase, bad classes don't have enough end game players with +2k hours on the game to represent then that's all.
     
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  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    So based off of your response, you believe that Heroes and Paladins should do more damage than Archers because they have no additional utility? So this would be something like 13-14m single target dummy dpm, assuming on full buffs (SI/SE/Echo) with max gear. Considering this is a 30-40% boost in damage and would fall only about 1-2m short of NL top end damage, do you think closing the gap by this much is balanced for an entry level class that barely needs to wash?

    Also, this would make their 3x brandish cleave damage >40m/min?

    I checked with JDP briefly and he said prior to the HT nerfs (I'm guessing the alternating cancels bug), he was getting 11-13m dpm 45 in HT. A 30% DPM increase for heroes would shift this to 14.3-16.9m dpm, meaning something like 12-13m effective DPM.

    Also, theoretically, an end-game Hero should be able to do 3.5-4m dpm in PB. A 30% dpm increase would bring them to 4.025 - 4.6m.

    As for your last point, Shadowers are considerably worse off than Heroes, are harder to wash, have less HP/survivability all around, and yet have more end-game representation than Heroes. Heroes have no representation because they're usually the go-to starter attacking class meant to bide time while their secondary class finishes washing.

    Perhaps this is a testament to how washing for other classes is now too easy?
    I see the above numbers being viable in a server where washing wasn't the central focus for most balancing issues, but then you'd run into the same problems of class hierarchy, just on a smaller DPM range. Make Heroes strong enough and there would be no reason to ever switch to other classes.

    Buff Heroes enough and you'll start seeing things like 5x Hero HT solos.
     
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  5. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    No one is talking about dummy dpm, wtf, and you know about that.
    No one is asking for a brandish % buff, any buff to heroes is probably going to panic, and 30% damage buff on brandish is not going to increase his final dpm by 30% on HT, and you KNOW this, you're just being biased.
    And i don't agree with wash as balance parameter, even with me doing 2 big wash projects, 21k hp shad and 30k/7k bucc, i can't be stronger than any warrior with more funds.
    wash is easy
    funding is not xD

    That was one of the funniest citations i'll ever read in my entire life
    I don't think heroes are the worst class to be honest, shadower is ways worse in my oppinion, but this is off-topic.
    This genious idea of harder to wash = needs to be powerful is just stupid, with that warriors,bucc and shad are going to be removed from end game/muled, because they are easy to wash, how they can actually deal damage?! This is unfair! I filled captchas for a entire 6 months! Or did a 1 month farm of broken events, legends isn't following this patch, since we're seeing bucc being very strong on endgame and even pallies being top tier on their niche, all you want is your class be the better one, at any cost.
    Let people fight for their classes peacefully, while you keep fighting for buffs on your S tier class :p
    And i really want to know where i write about heroes deserving 40% damage boost, seems like you're the one lacking reading comprehension skills, or you just want to justify your points at any cost lol
     
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  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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  7. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Wow, i really wrote dummy dpm here, and 40% increase on brandish,thank you for that ^^
    Edit: maybe i can change "in any boss" to in some bosses, since free hit archer should deal more dpm
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Heroes have a higher dpm efficiency than bowmasters, so idk what you're on about.
     
  9. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    ????????
    Can we ignore dummy dpm, or we need to nerf corsair to hell
    Even with higher dpm efficiency their damage output ON BOSSES is just low for what they bring to parties, that's the point, and you know i'm talking about that.
     
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  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    That's what dpm efficiency is.
    You asked for a scenario in which Heroes do more damage than archers. An end game bowmaster does 13m dummy dpm. An end game hero does 10m dummy dpm. To be on equal footing with archers, you would need to increase Hero's dummy dpm by 30%.

    The top end bowmaster does 9m dpm in HT. A top end hero does 13m+. Are you saying we should nerf Heroes now to match them with Bowmasters DPM efficiency on bosses?
     
  11. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Dpm efficiency is Dummy DPM VS damage on bosses, and not they final damage output on bosses.
    Any buff to heroes should increase they ST damage, and not their damage overall and everyone knows that, and AGAIN you're talking about this stupid dummy dpm, you want to see big numbers?
    This 13m dpm on hero (if possible i want citation) isn't good as the 9m dpm of BM, and you know that.
    HT is supposed to be the best place for heroes, one of the few cleave bosses, dominated by single target attackers, idk how much of this 13m dpm is "useless", but yeah, heroes should easily outdamage any attacker ST attacker by a large margin, on a boss where they are supposed to SHINE, while archers can do their job on free-fire moments of HT and providing SE, anyways, on other bosses archers is just going to smash any hero while providing SE, at least they deserve a good spot where they're supposed to shine, this is not going to make people mule archers or bringing 3 heroes to HT, you know that, isn't that simple.

    Anyway i'm not going to keep this stupid dialogue since this can't bring any potential benefit to anyone or the specific class, keep your elitist point of view.
     
  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Yes, and why would I refer to dpm efficiency in any context other than bossing dpm?
    As for the rest of your statement, this is something I've already said myself.

    But for the sake of repetition, let's solve the problem.

    Even with a single target the entire run, with 10m single target damage and 75% dpm efficiency (what Serperior gets, and Heroes theoretically should get higher due to stance, but let's say it balances out because of buffering mechanics), Heroes single target DPM should be somewhere above 7.5m.

    Now, let's break down the entire fight from start to finish, in a 50 minute body phase. You have a two cleave situation at start with leg/tail that lasts ~5 minutes (100% 2-cleave). You have left head/midhead phase that lasts about 30-35 minutes, let's say 50% single target with alternating heads, 25% 2-cleave with both heads up, and 25% 2 cleave on wings/arms), then you have 10-15 minutes single head + arms phase (100% single target). This strategy accounts for purely head-oriented dpm, only hitting wings/arms when you run into a double cancel situation.

    Leg/Tail Phase: 75m damage (15m dpm x 5 mins)
    Heads Phase: 337.5- 393.75m damage (15m dpm on heads 25%, 7.5m dpm on heads; 15m dpm on wings/arms 25%)
    Last Head/Arms Phase: 75-112.5m damage (7.5m dpm x 10-15 mins)

    Total: 487.5m - 581.25m damage done, depending on cancels, rotations, and compositions, over 50 minutes.
    That's 9.75m - 11.625m dpm 45 with effective dpm on heads WITHOUT inflating 3-cleave DPM.

    You know those situations that you're trying to write off as negligible dpm when two heads are cancelled and you move down to hit wings? Every other class besides NLs does this too, and Heroes beat out every class during these transitions because they're the strongest two-target hitters.

    13m dpm 45 on hero is possible (especially with 3-cleave inflation), and it's not even the upper limit. IIRC, JDP doesn't even have the same level of funding as Serperior.
    upload_2022-6-8_17-42-8.png

    Also, I'm guessing you're unaware, but Bowmasters don't free fire dpm in HT, even at level 200. They get knocked back 20-30% more than Heroes.

    Scale by gear and Heroes have a much, much higher dpm efficiency than their Archer counterparts because stance is a static skill while avoid relies on gear/progression.
     
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  13. marioyobro
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    marioyobro Slime

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    DUDE WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN? Are you just spitting out fake numbers all over this forum? An end-game hero does 2.5 dpm20 in pink bean, and that's only if they have SI. I have 35 pink beans runs on my hero with perfect sword just trying to touch 3m dpm, I can't even get close with GELTS. With perfect sword perfect gloves i can't break 2.8. How many more of your numbers are entirely inaccurate? I can't believe you said heroes can do 4m dpm in pb right now LMFAO IM DEAD
     
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  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Back when pink bean was resistant to holy (and I had to use lightning charge, which puts paladin single target LOWER than hero brandish), I was able to get more than 3m dpm on my paladin with apple without using heavens hammer (I had a 126 attack sword, but I was using 21 att gloves and 22 att cape). BananaPie, was able to get 3.5m dpm, and his only perfect item was his sword.

    upload_2022-6-9_8-3-57.png
    upload_2022-6-9_8-16-5.png

    Based on theory, a hero should do about 9-10% more single target than lightning charge paladin against a neutral target. If this is not the case, there should be a bug report created.

    The highest number we have from JDP is 3.3
    upload_2022-6-9_8-5-59.png

    And I believe this was not optimized - because single target HERO brandish should be HIGHER than paladin single target lightning blast. Contrary to popular belief that it takes no skill to play hero / paladin, there are details that make a difference, such as:

    -Quickly following the bean as it changes position via jump attack to ensure that you are actually hitting it the entire time.
    -Using all cure potion on pink beans 1/1 hit to not lose any frames
    -Only using buffs during DR to not waste valuable attacking time
    -Taking touch damage from the bean to force i-frames so you can avoid stuns / seduce

    Based on extrapolating lightning charge vs brandish above, I find 3.5m to 4m dpm to be a reasonable estimate for an end game hero that is played well in pink bean.
     
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  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    JDP could have reached 3.5 just on gear upgrades alone, and his dpm would have been higher had he not been stuck with being party leader every run.

    The extra 500k is based on personal belief that there is room for growth.
     
  16. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    Just give the hero wings and floating swords skill
     
  17. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Wait lmao so it turns out the hero players really are bad? :^)
     
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  18. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    The math here isn't even indicative of anything other than theoretical Hero, and I'm sure you've already seen the math showing further detriment to any potential Hero DPM via long positioning times, with added drops of DP spam killing Hero orbs. It looks more disingenuous than anything, math done in bad faith to do little else than to stoke flames.
     
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  19. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Of course it’s a theoretical hero because we’re using a hero with 10m single target dummy dpm, which doesn’t exist (yet). But the purpose of the exercise is to see what cleave are capable of doing even without the reliance of three cleave trap in todays versions of HT. There is no denying that the changes to HT head cleave should have made cleavers more valuable in head damage, but without proper hero representation, it’s hard to even envision what their potential is. We don’t have a single hero in that DPM 45 thread.

    Another thing, heroes aren’t as burdened by transitioning left or right as DrK because their dpm doesn’t rely too significantly on SE and they can afford to wait for opportune times to get rebuffed. DKs tend to cross right more frequently to also buff people with HB.

    As for early DP on combo, I can see that being an issue if you have both arms and midhead going, but with minimal damage on arms, I don’t think it’s much of an issue? Not near a computer to test, but what’s the dpm 1 difference of having started with full orbs and without?

    Perhaps that could be something to buff Heroes with. Make Combo undispellable.
     

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