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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. datahush
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    datahush Blue Snail

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    5:22 AM
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    I recently saw the polls on worse classes and Heros seems to be wayyyyy below every other class still, and it made me wonder why Heros were made in the first place. Then i rmbred Rage.

    Since def-boosts/buffs are totally useless in end game when everyone pots at every hit, and DPM buffs for warriors are off limits to ensure range classes remain supreme, how about bringing back the importance of Rage?

    Rage and heros are completely invalidated because of freely available cheap Ciders. So we can incentivize having Heros in end game content again by:

    1. Reducing cider stacks from 3 to 1 (so that it can still be used in lower and shorter bosses).
    2. Increasing cider costs significantly (so its cheaper to bring a hero, also meso-sink for rich)
    3. Prevent cider use for certain types of content that traditionally rely a lot on ciders (e.g. HT).

    Or we can just ditch Heros totally
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. asdsaou
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    asdsaou Slime

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    Heros are good for cleave content... Which there is barely any compared to single target. For 3-target cleave, they can easily do 200% the damage of a single target, while at single target they're 30-40% worse. It's very situational and cleave situations are rare, like Zak arms, HT, CWK, or JC compared to the 20 other Single Target bosses. It's the big reason why people don't like heros.

    I don't think changes to cider/rage would make up the difference.
     
  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelosaurus

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    Join a guild or befriend players that run PB, and you can get invited to PB as a hero as long as you have decent gears. Heroes are arguably in a better spot than shadowers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. Lucidcat
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    Lucidcat Master Chronos

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    Hero: short time mapling demo
    Expert: cwkpq, jc
    Good: zak, HT, extra high DEF boss
    OK: single target bosses
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    With ciders nerfed I'd still rather use coke pills in Horntail compared to bringing a Hero/DK/Shad to the squad as all they do is force me to constantly use ACPs. They're mostly just annoying to have around for pure ranged compositions, and whatever extra DPM they bring is nullified in the long stretches of single target DPM. The only thing cleave accomplishes in HT is shortening the braindead portion of the fight at the end, and forcing everyone else to press their ACP button constantly. There are no minor buffs that will change that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Red Snail

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    Ciders is not the reason heros are lacking, like people here mentioned.
    Only way to buff heros is to upgrade their single target dmg. There were plenty of well written threads
    about how to make panic not absorb orbs and have a cd to increase dpm.
    Since heros are the best cleavers in the game, upgrading their cleave dmg with rage or enrage is counter productive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  7. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    If cider is truly useless, why won't anyone accepts coke pill versions of HB and HS?
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/coke-pills-for-not-weapon-attack.45373/

    Disagree on this.
    No matter how much u buff, you will either
    1) still have insignificant damage due paladins having more
    2) gets too much damage and now ruin's paladin's identity as #1 melee single target DPS

    Regarding point 2, you can have lower den pally's damage, but the difference may be too insignificant that make's pally's #1 damage insignificant when compared to heroes, which, still result in the same issue.

    Bring back cleave meta, and heroes will be relevant again.
     
  8. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Red Snail

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    You are against every idea that was ever suggested here regarding heros, while your only solution is bring back cleave meta.
    If you read kimmy's last post for maplelegends roadmap 2022, the server is headed to even more single target bosses.
    A cleave meta wont be here any time soon, sticking our head in the sand will just make this class more irrelevant.
    If i follow your logic, the only option to buff hero is give him some kind of party utility that can benefit others, since you wanna keep his dpm the same for single target.
    since rage is equal to ciders, and enrage dosent give any important dmg buff, i really dont know what else you can do. You always wanna keep pala's "identity" (wtf
    does that even mean) as it is, so pretty much no solution. Only thing i can think of is moving SI from bucc to hero. Buccs has a solid DPM and lots of party utility
    even without SI, moving it to heros might make them important for bosses (or just more hero mules). This will never happen tho.

    The idea of not panic not absorbing orbs is the right way to go imo. A Better single target DPM, even higher than pala's, wont make them irrelevant
    because their constant pinning abillities are still important to NT bosses.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  9. AndrewMapler
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    AndrewMapler Mano

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    One idea to make heros relevant to party composition everywhere: reduce rage weapon attack but make it stack with ciders/attack pots. The weapon attack of rage could be set to something that makes the overall party single target dpm 5-10% higher even with the reduced dpm from the hero being in the party. People would definitely mule this but on the other hand active attacking heros would be valued much higher than they are today.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelosaurus

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    I'm not sure why heroes are complaining about their 10m+ single target dummy dpm, especially when they're given things like stance to increase their effective DPM overall. Heroes can do pretty well in HT still, even with full cleave on heads (no wing/arm damage). They're a better candidate for cleaving heads than DKs because they don't have to worry about Zerking and getting slapped by wings, and you're already seeing Arlo post 11.6m dpm 45s on his DK. Take out wing/arm damage and you get what, 7-8m dpm on heads? That's comparable to other classes.

    JDPJHC's DPM 20 on pinkbean body is 3.2m as of August 14, 2021. No other hero has stepped up to take up the mantle since. I'm willing to bet Heroes could take the spot for highest DPM 45 in HT with a significant chunk of that being head cleave. The problem with Hero dpm is not the class itself but perhaps the type of players that represent the class. Since it's an entry level class, most people that play Heroes tend to be single-account users with fewer means to progress their gear to end-game levels.

    With all said, Heroes are still useful in that they do a pretty decent job in dealing damage for an entry level class, have a fairly low start-up cost, and can survive end-level content with minimal washing. As the server trends towards needing HB less and less, they will also displace DKs on the tier list.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    All of them that I've seen are geared towards buffing single targets for heroes. I don't agree with it, so obviously i disagreed with all that I've seen. Also, I personally believe there's nothing wrong with heroes, despite being the lowest in ranking. Hence I'm fine with no changes.

    It does indirectly increases single target damage. Tho it would increase the cleave damage, which to some, may be too OP. Nise did find boosting +5wa for heroes too OP. On the flip side, alyosha is ok with letting go 5wa. I don't know enough of the maths to support or disagree with that idea at the moment for now.

    Not me, but the staffs. If it weren't for them being insistent I won't preach this either.
    And incase u missed it, pally's identity is to be the #1 single target DPM among all melee classes.
    Why NLs haven't get significant damage nerfs is for the same reason. They are overall #1 with the exception of extremely skilled corsairs.

    If Heroes have higher single target then pally, then let me ask you, why anyone bring a pally over hero for any content that doesnt require a pin?
    If you gonna say its for friends, or due to lack of willing players of other classes, we can say the same for hero right now too.

    Also tell me, which boss heroes can't participate or will grief due to the lack of damage?

    In 2021, when pallies are heavily affected in HT due to having their HH nerfed and cleave meta in HT was still relevant. NT was considered meme content back den and pallies are locked there (and scar/targa) for no apparent reason. I'm not sure about you, but I definitely don't want a repeat of that, despite not being a pally player.

    Well, heroes are still relevant to CWKPQ and JCs too, not that anyone thinks that they are contents, just like NT years ago.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  12. Chris
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    Chris Skelosaurus Retired Staff

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    8:22 AM
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    Give brandish the cleric's heal treatment to minimize the gap in single target dpm? Dmg increases/decreases depending on the # of targets being hit.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
    • Creative Creative x 2
  13. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    MELO
    HERO shouldn't go to pb. Because their damage is too low. I don't really want to give such a bad job a chance to participate in pb. After all, the damage of nl and corsair is more than 6~8M dmg of HERO.
    Why do we still need Wasting a seat for HERO?
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 7
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    so what percentage of damage in relation to NL/Corsair should a character deal to secure a spot in PB?
     
  15. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    You and I both know that hero is a low dmg job. Especially in nt and pb. It's a fact. Don't console yourself.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 4
    • Agree Agree x 3
  16. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I also do know MM, BM, Bucc, DKs and Shad has lower damage then NLs and Corsairs.
    It should be common sense that no attacking class is worth playing other then NLs and Corsairs, and the rest should all 100% be muled for full efficiency. The only exception may be paladin for the pin and/or rush as it may be too difficult for muling purposes.

    All class needs to be buffed to minimally 100% of NL's damage in order for them to be viable for bossing. It's not a good to have, its not a want, its a necessity.

    Incase you haven't realized, Heroes damage haven't been nerfed or buffed for the past 3 years and have been going to NT regardless. Why insist they were ok back then and not now?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    MELO
    MM,BM:se
    bucc:si
    dk:hb
    shad:sed
    nl,corsair,pally:good dmg
    hero:rage??am i joke to u??
    no great dmg no great buffs
    Come on hero.go away!!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    then why bishops are not welcomed to PB anymore? why are they asked to "go away?" free heals, free bless, free hs (both holy shield and symbol), free rez, isn't that like... super awesome?
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/make-bishop-mains-alright-in-pink-bean.44096/

    right now im juz waiting for every buff to be muled :)
    also regarding dk, i doubt that class will be used actively in a run in future
     
  19. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    Bs is a great job in any boss. And I don't seem to say bs is bad? Right? kid?

    I'm just talking about hero being bullied and discriminated against.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  20. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    You didn't specifically say it but the majority of the community thinks other wise, which in this case you are not part of.
    Just like how the majority of the community thinks heroes are the worst class right now, and this time, you are part of it, which I'm not part of.

    It's true heroes are being discriminated. But being bullied?
    If the host doesn't take you up for a 30-man run in PB then thats on the host. But there are hosts which takes up for 30-man PB.

    Regarding NT, I don't see any host specifically rejecting heroes unless they require a paladin or IL for specifically pinning purposes, which in this case, MM, BM, Corsair, and Buccs will all be rejected in this particular scenario.
    Maybe you can talk about how you got rejected as a Hero, or have witness a Hero being rejected not due to the reason stated above, but rather due to damage issues with the considerations that there are no 150+ INT lords in the party and we can see if anyone faces similar situations.
     

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