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Manifesto On The 3 Main Problems Plaguing The Server

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Jesseaw, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    Hi Healskys, thanks for typing up a more level headed post and asking valid questions.
    I concede that I didn't do well with regards to addressing this. I don't think it is comparable to botting because this is an MMO and buying a service from another player is valid, as much as buying a zak helm or scar helm is legit. Also, like Oradious says the money to buy leech doesn't come from nowhere, a new player has very limited funds and has to decide whether or not invest the cash in faster levelling. The way the game's culture goes (and has gone since time immemorial), paying someone to spam ultimate spells for you with hard-earned cash has always been considered valid.
    I actually fully agree with you that leeching is overpowered and stupid, I've thought this way since 2009 MapleSEA. But once again, I've come to consider it legit and (possibly more importantly) an important pillar of the culture and economy in this server. As I said I only have a level 170 non-mage (I'd rather clean toilets than play a mage no joke) and never purchased a single meso of leech.

    But yep that's my POV towards the so-called "issues" of the server, it's how the server has always been and accurately reflects the situation that GMS was in back then. And no, I don't reckon a progressive/"liberal" approach to these issues are necessary, because the server is geared towards nostalgia seekers. It would be like going into a museum and asking why they don't like, y'know, update those really old things on display. Not the point of the premise at all.

    It can be removed and replaced. But it's too ingrained in the culture here to warrant serious thought, and most importantly Kimmy has said there is not plans for this. So no point arguing a moot case, furthermore I still think there is no need for it when the server maintains healthy player retention regardless.
    Sorry I was not clear in my post, perpetual immaturity refers to EVERYTHING from everyone on the server, like discord antics, old player elitism, racism and ridculous allegations thereof, smega wars and so on. Not referring to the HP washing complaints.
     
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  2. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    No, it further proves them being lazy. The truth hurts, I'm sorry.

    Removing HP washing would cause more issues to the ones that have leveled up and not washed out their MP into HP/Main Stat yet and when they log on to replace MP to their stats it wouldn't work and that person wold have

    • Wasted mesos for leech.
    • Wasted time on waiting for AP Resets in the duration of their 1.5/2 years of voting.
    • Wasted their energy on controlling the character to begin with.

    OP mentioned

    If it was against GMS, I think you and OP should go and read their TOS because playing a Private Server with their logo on it is also apportioning all the other official servers, which is against their rules.

    I addressed it, here https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...-plaguing-the-server.37538/page-7#post-252570 it would zoom you over to it.

    You're describing leeching as third-party program while a third-party program wouldn't let you continue using your machine, a third-party program would need the whole client in focus in order
    to be in affect which means if someone is getting leeched they can have full control over their keyboard and mouse whereas botting/macroing wouldn't let you use the machine thats being automated by a program.

    Also, TMI on the shrimps bruv..

    I don't think you know but they already HARD nerfed leeching
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...be-binded-to-multiple-keys.36120/#post-243119

    A mage would be able to put 3 Genesis/Blizzard/Meteor on 1 skill-macro to press 1 button tab out control another to sweep, rebuff, repeat swapping/tabbing out to switch clients..

    look at this guy, not sure if it's actually true or not, but if it is how sad is that?
     
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  3. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I think you are looking too much into the details of how both works.

    Say, scenario 1, someone for unknown reason (got a good friend?) gives you a free 1/2 hour leech. While in this leech, u decide to afk, watch an episode of anime using your phone/TV/second PC, comes back and see your character gains, for eg, 3 levels.

    Den say, scenario 2, you download a BOT to control a mage, and do a self-leech/grind for 1/2 hour. In this time-frame, u decide to afk, watch an episode of anime using your phone/TV/second PC, comes back and see your character gains, for eg, 3 levels.

    It's not about how the exp is done, but rather what you, as a player, is doing while gaining these free afk exp.
    I don't know about botting, but you stated that doing botting will limit the things you can do as it takes control of the whole system. If you bot in a VM, u might overcome it, idek.

    But its not about how its done, but rather, the privilege to AFK and gain exp, while you are out and about on other stuffs in your life.
     
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  4. Sumilidon 25
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    Sumilidon 25 King Slime

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    This thread is still going?? Thanks for the laughs I guess. I don’t get the leech hate. Ever since 4th job was released it’s been a thing maybe you don’t remember it?? Its pretty balanced imho not many ppl want mages on their boss runs so how do you suppose they make mesos?? Also just go and pull up a hefferheffer or chickenpoodl or csenger YouTube videos they hp washed or even take 15 seconds and check an 11 year old guide on how to hp wash it’s been apart of the game for so long. Not just legends. You’re also forgetting the population was huge as well as back then many people didn’t even get past lvl 30 or even get to 4th job Neckson made bosses to hit hard eg; Pianus and Papulatus used to be endgame along with jr balrog and crimson balrog. You’ll notice so many heroes because they have a lot of hp along with again nx costs irl money and it’s not free. It’s quite redundant to complain about washing when it is optional for many aspects of the game also nx is free and you have the foresight to know that true endgame bosses are already being optimized what max damage is etc.
     
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  5. randomhs
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    randomhs Timer

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    real talk tho, does anyone like hp washin, at worst it gatekeeps players from doing content and at best it gets abused so ranged classes don’t have to struggle ever and dks become a meme
     
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  7. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    I like it, and I know some others that do too.

    It adds more freedom to how you build your character and allows you to get a nice boost in hp (at an imo fair price).

    The main problem is that it's confusing for new players and that it's mandatory for certain content but I think the staff has handled this in the past and will handle this in the future quite well (mainly through granting additional hp thourgh equips).
     
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  8. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Personal preference, but as a Hero, I don't think I will enjoy as much if my HP isnt 30k
     
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  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I enjoy HP washing. I think my interest in this server changed when voting was opened up to multiple accounts which allowed me to start multiple long-term projects concurrently. It was a lot less interactive/engaging when you were stuck with just one 'main' account, but now a days it's common for a player to have 5 or 6 playable accounts.

    I find it irritating when people keep pushing for changes to feed their need for instant gratification. IMO, the shift towards instant gratification was what ruined old school Maplestory. The slow grind and ability to see your progress IS the core nostalgic experience that a lot of older players are here for. So when new players come into a server they've barely been a part of and try to 'fix' everything they seem unfit, of course older players are going to scoff at them.

    I don't think anybody here is arguing that there couldn't be more tweaks and balances to reaching end-game HP minimum thresholds. Lately, staff has been doing a phenomenal job in that regard. However, crying about the minimum required work that has to be done to achieve a certain level of play-style is just lazy. Should your character start at level 200? No. Your NL shouldn't have free 12k hp without some concerted amount of effort either.
     
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  10. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    It is fine when it is just a bonus for a comfortable amount for bossing, like say 14k hp clean for ranged at lv200, with the extra HP gain spread over the level (no -MP +HP). This adds a decent depth to the game that people can play around with. But it become absurd when you can have 30k hp clean ranged running around at lv160.
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Can you name a single 30k hp ranged player in Legends?
     
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  12. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Most people won't have another device, surprisingly some people don't have TV and use the internet to get the news, weather or watch stuff online.(me) Some people can't really use their phones for that because some browsers would restart the entire video if its been tabbed out for a while because of job calls etc. (meaning, some people don't have home phones and just use mobile.(me again)

    Deeming leech as a third-party program isn't right, thats calling another human thats probably legitimately playing the game for another character could be self leech even if it wasn't.

    Well not really it wouldn't really matter what the other person is doing unless they're genuinely botting on one character while the other is leeching from it, the VM-ware botting is possible but it depends on how the Virtual Box handles the programs - if the Virtual Box is able to have its own desktop separately different to how Mac has it to Wine (how ML is played for Mac) it wouldn't work because the APP is coded into the client so it can't access the desktop freely.

    Why would that matter?

    You aren't botting, lets put it this way
    a Bowmaster at a boss is using Hurricane at a safe place, they choose to use Hurricane alt-tab do something for 5 mins tab back into the game repeat it probably using Phoenix in the process as well.
    Would this be considered botting? Would this be considered the same as what you're describing?

    Can you explain in more detail what you mean by
    So if I got mapowner at Ulu 2 used Shining Ray a few times didn't kill any of the mobs after obtaining mapowner went afk at the top someone goes into the map kills them all and I leveled up because of it did I bot?

    Because the way that you and healskyshealskys describing leeching as botting it contradicts what they both are.

    let me use an example
    • - We tend to use the word bug loosely for any very small creature with legs. However, a true bug is defined as belonging to the order Hemiptera. Insects belong to the class Insecta and they are characterized by three-part bodies, usually two pairs of wings, and three pairs of legs, (e.g., bees and mosquitoes).
    • - The main difference between a bug and a beetle is that a bug belongs to the order Hemiptera whereas a beetle belongs to the order Coleoptera. Furthermore, bugs are mostly plant-feeders that take a liquid diet while beetles eat a wide range of plant and animal materials.
    • - Spiders are arachnids, not bugs nor insects.

    So as shown here from Google Search are Beetles and Spiders deemed bugs, are they bugs?
    this being said lets the call the leech seller a Beetle and the afk an Arachnid.
    (Is the leech buyer a botter? if they are then ban them, ban all the filthy leechers. Oh, and if you're in a party and have to go to the bathroom or get something to eat etc. why not go to the Cash Shop or FM while going afk? If not you'd be deemed a botter while in a party oh no I'm petrified~ /s)

    • - The Beetle. Sure, the mage might want to boss at some point comfortably so they MP wash and soon after HP wash to survive bosses without Magic Guard let's call them the Diabolical Ironclad Beetle.

    • - The Arachnid. Sure, HP washing an Archer or a Night Lord but for now at lower levels they're a Patu digua which they want to become like the Darwin's bark spider.(this THING legit scared the FUCK out of me I hate Arachnids..)

    Now, you guys are probably thinking wtf is this guy talking about bugs and beetles and spiders all of a sudden?! the Patu digua is the weakest while Darwin's bark spider is the strongest of the Arachnids the Diabolical Ironclad Beetle has the strongest shell of all the beetles. - now back to HP washing in the real light.

    Sure, HP washing can be boring af and not be great at all at the start but it was there as an alternative to gaining HP. The server says that HP washing is optional and they are right as proven by AioriaXAioriaX and xadraxadra by doing it themselves however SapphireJSapphireJ says and explains things in even better detail about how the server is as advertised and yes it can ruin some peoples fun but completely removing it to not have it the way it is to something else and not having AP Resets wash out after returning would make that person quit, if there would be a NEW washing method that has BOTH in the game I think everyone on both sides wouldn't really care because both parties would be able to HP/MP wash.

    Another point is, I don't know how people can do something without researching it first, or try it out and then if they don't like it just make a new character early. Level 30 isn't that high level tbh, if they don't like it and messed up somewhere they can ask in the forums for help, not jump into the forums make a thread and go full poogers saying HP washing is against GMS - it is, but this isn't JMS, this isn't GMS this isn't KMS. It's ML.
    research.png
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...when-getting-a-ws-on-gacha.37183/#post-250012
    (I would have normally quoted this, but the thread was closed from posting replies..)
     
  13. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    I used to have the same mentality and hated the concept of leeching from the start. I don't derive any enjoyment from leeching, so I choose not to buy any. I have a strong enough mage to sell every possible kind of leech in the game, and choose not to do so. You can just choose not to interact with that part of the game.

    It's important to keep in mind that there are very few stable sources meso on the server. Previous sources of meso for bossing are all dry now (about half as much as 1 year ago). If you want to make a perfect weapon (5-6b+), you are forced to sell leech.

    Also, keep in mind who is buying leech in the first place. Usually it's people in the 100-120 range, where it's the most painful to self-level, so they save 50-70m to zoom past that. The opportunity cost is that they start 4th job with much worst equips and lose out on damage / access to skillbooks; there's a tradeoff. The other people buying leech, most likely are working on their second character and have already done the 1-120 grind themselves on multiple characters. (Also as a side note, at level 90+ hermit, you should be getting close to 10m/hr with a party of 3 at CDs with HS).

    Let's consider for a second that we do get rid of leeching. How will that impact the server?
    1. Well, there will probably be way less people able to train up mules (SI, SE, HB, etc), which will mostly impact the ability for newer players to break into HT/NT/CWK groups.
    2. The best means of raw meso generation will be around 8m/hr (ulu2/gobi with MU) and 5m/hr (CDs/mannies with MU).
    3. Since high level players can't make meso through leech, all bossing services will cost way more and be gatekept.
    4. You kill the archmage class completely. Bishops will just be HS mules.
    5. Newer players will quit the server due to the 100-120 grind.
    I mean there are a ton of other "flawed" parts of the game too, like buying a zhelm/htp/MoN. Why should a level 50 character get a boss loot that's for level 135+? You literally pay someone 15m, die 3 times, get res'd then get free content. But I'm sure you didn't get one. Hopefully you boss for your own HTP/MoN too, like I did.
     
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  14. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I have one is my guild. lv125 NL, leeching all the way, 300 int.
    I know someone in chinese speaking community, a BM. He did the math for 6.5m nx to reach 30K at lv160.
    Or you can just check out at the ML's screenshot channel, plenty of people sharing their 30k hp range in the future.
    I didn't say it is everywhere as of now. But there are indeed cases out there as of now.
    And this is within my small ML community, with an basically unknown guild.
     
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  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Yeah, and they're not going to be washed out until 2023. If you have a problem with someone spending 2.5 years to wash out on a character for the sole purpose of saving on a few pots per run, then that's beyond me. My question was regarding if you knew a single person who has washed a ranged character to 30k hp already. This server is over 5 years old, yet you would still have trouble naming even one person.

    The reality is people usually quit before they even get to that point. And the number of people doing this - and accomplishing it - is so miniscule that it probably won't impact the server all that much. It hasn't impacted the server 6 years down the road. While it's possible it might become an issue within the next few years, especially with how much easier it has become to wash, it's not really a point of contention.
     
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  16. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    At this point you are going off-topic. It does not matter what you do while afk. But i'll throw 2-cents on what I think about this anywz.
    Well I don't use TV too. And if you are like me, who downloads shows locally before watching, then it should not force the entire to reload.
    And well, if I really have no second device, I can just decide to grab a lunch, comeback in 1/2 hour, and see myself gaining that 3 levels.

    Sure it is not right. But from the perspective of the targeted player doing nothing and yet gaining the same amount of EXP, to healskyshealskys, it is a problem.
    For me, I don't really care as long as I still have meta maps that I can hop into.

    Thanks for your input, but then again, its not about how its done.

    Technically no, but you will reap the same benefits as you would when you are botting (basically the whole point of this convo anywz). You are away from your client, went on to do other stuffs, and benefited from it. Maybe the staffs don't mind, but yes, I would consider this the same as what I feel healskys is describing.

    Let me give another example.
    Before kid mannequin had auto aggro patched, on the 2019 xmas event, I saw 2 archemage sitting on a chair. They both have their summons up, and the kid mannequin walks towards them. But before kid mannes is able to hit them, the summons killed them all, and their pets loots the snowdrop coins (currency to obtain AP resets) and rascal snowpiece.

    So for 160 seconds, they can jus do watever they want, watch a video, etc.

    Compared to someone who bot for 160 seconds, other than the fact that he needs to setup a 3rd party software, whats the difference?

    No you did not bot. You got a free leech. It may be a 0.01% exp, but another player helped you to gain that exp, hence its considered leech. But then again, its not about how you obtained that exp, but rather, the fact that you are able to be away from your client, and still reap benefits. If you decide to bot for 1 second to make that level up, its still a fact that you are away for 1 second and still made that level up.
     
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  17. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    You don't have to doubt me too much on how large the number of those 30k HP range can be, because I dont have the data for it anyway. But I do see more and more cases of those around to those realise character aren't a meme but might be a trend. Thus I am raising this as a concern to the community who are not aware of this yet. Of course, the GMs can be aware, and think this is the future chad character of ML, idk.

    I do think is this a very very valid concern for the future because it is indeed happening (finishing the char is another issue). This will servely impact this game wrt washing and class viability at the elite level of playing (which this game balances around anyway). I just don't want this to develop overtime and become another "legacy problem", which is a bit like HP washing now.
     
  18. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Not sure about you but to me, it is best to think of worst-case scenarios and think of the impact first, because while its a low chance, it is still a chance for the worse-case scenario to occur.
    Kind of like passing or booming a CSS 1%
     
  19. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    I don't wanna dismiss your concerns, I think this is still quite a level-headed and logical worry.

    But might I point out that for class viability, you still gotta vote 2-3 years to play a ranged class at that level with overwhelming amounts of INT, as compared to just playing a warrior? No one in their right mind actually does this I think. Imagine a new player deciding off the bat they want to spend 3 years doing something like this -- I just don't see it.

    And then, here's my personal opinion: even if they do, I don't find it overpowered. Bossing in this game isn't exactly hard, it's one-button gameplay all the way through. If they want a 30k hp ranged attacker that survives 6 hits from HT instead of 2, the only difference is they get to drift even closer to dreamland during bossing....which is something I'd rather not do (hence my unwashed warrior). So if they wanna do something as fucking stupid as spend 3 years voting in a mushroom game private server to fall asleep to a boring boss then really it's power to them.

    Also, if you've bossed late game before they very rarely actually kick people out of squads because you don't have an ultra optimized character for any given situation. Like I said, these bosses aren't exactly hard. If I'm organizing a boss run I'd rather take my 5.5k hp bowmaster friend who didn't wash than whatever sweaty 30k hp NL whose entire personality is having a highly washed character and otherwise has no chemistry with me.

    So yeah, I really couldn't care less if people wanna wash to 30k.
     
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  20. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I appreciate these points, and yes they are too valid.

    But personally, I see this issue very similar to the shaolin 5-6 problem - people will like to use the word 'class-identity' randomly & vaguely just as a way to show they are unhappy despite class-identity being undefined.

    If I were to buy leech, I can't care if you're a I/L or F/P, as long as you can give me the desired EPH. So why are I/L so upset with the freezing nerf? Because they lost their 'class-identity' and had subjectively become a second class 5-6 leecher.

    So how does the shaolin problem relates to 30k HP NL/BM? When compared to paladins - whose 'class-identity' revolves around being the tankiest, and highest single-target DPM, I am pretty sure, that while you won't, some of the paladins will become so emotionally unbalance, they come online to this forum screaming at their 'class-identity' lost, and illogically states that there is now 'no more reason to play paladin', just like what the shaolin 5-6 nerf did to the I/L.
     
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