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Manifesto On The 3 Main Problems Plaguing The Server

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Jesseaw, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. Cashew2
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    Cashew2 Orange Mushroom

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    If I'm understanding correctly, multi-boxing is the act of inputting actions on multiple clients at the same time on the same machine. So macroing is fine since you still have to hit the macro and click over to the other client to attack/buff on that client. Multi-boxing would be like reprogramming your computer/client/keyboard (whichever ?) so that 1 key stroke applies to multiple clients
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I think the staff's multiboxing is refering to instance, when a single key press is registered by both clients. Like you press "X", and both client will cast a spell together. Instead where you press "X" on 1 client, then alt-tab into another client and press "X" again.st
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    my understanding of multiboxing WAS "1 input controls multiple clients."

    When you do multiclient, you send 1 input for each window, which is why people alt-tab to change focus.

    When you do multibox, you send 1 input to all windows, removing the necessity for alt-tab.

    BUT I re-read the wiki page and I realized it doesn't actually define them like above. My reading brain must've farted, so aaronis had a good point. I think what confused me is that some multiboxing programs have the feature to control all clients at once. My apologies for the confusion.
     
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    In-game macros are allowed but external macros are not. AFAIK even external macros to client toggle (which is how people multibox in other games) is considered against the rules, even though you aren't necessarily adding any inputs into the game.
     
  5. Prandtl
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    Prandtl Blue Snail

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    It really just needs to be accepted that HP washing is part of what ML is. And so is leeching. You can’t come in as a new player, make a suggestion, and expect to change over 5 years of what makes the server what it is. No it wasn’t part of GMS but this is ML, not GMS. I don’t think the server has ever been advertised as an authentic GMS v0.62 experience. Yes changes have been made to have a more GMS-like experience, but I’d reiterate my point: this is ML and not GMS. We can’t yell at Kimmy and the rest of the staff if it doesn’t fit our perception of what ML should be. At the end of the day (I believe) their decisions will be made to cater to the greatest percentage of the community such that it does not alienate a majority of the player base.

    Not wanting to change HP washing and leeching is not veteran players wanting new players to suffer - it’s them not wanting to change what has really become core mechanics of the game. You can take examples from other games where the community changed its mechanics (item level and GearScore AddOn in WoW for example). A large sector of the economy is selling leech, boss runs, and int equips. Any large changes to HP washing and leeching will ripple through the economy and likely cause much greater frustration in the community compared to this.

    Yes, HP washing is not ideal IF you want to have more than the minimum HP to boss. However, it has been pointed out a myriad of times in this thread, it IS optional and you can do content without it. It has also been shown you can start “late” and it doesn’t take all that much effort to do it. Yea the number 1 million NX sounds like a lot. But as has been stated by the Staff, they are working on ways to ease the manner of NX accumulation. If the issue is having HP to HT/NT/PB then you will accumulate much of those NX in the time it takes you to get there as a new player.

    One can then make the argument that issue then becomes that your character is “weaker” than those who did take the time to HP wash. That still does not prevent you from being able to boss. It completely changes the argument to if others will select you for their bossing party. There will always be those who play more than you and are min/maxers. ML has always been a social game and this is easily mitigated by finding like minded players that are not min/maxing.

    The point was brought up that people work and have families, etc. I have all of those things too. But it is a bit ridiculous to balance the playing field around having these sorts of commitments. At this point it becomes a matter of what you are prioritizing in your life.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 13
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  6. Cashew2
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    Cashew2 Orange Mushroom

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    Yea sorry, I meant in game macros
     
  7. SapphireJ
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    SapphireJ Dark Stone Golem

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    This is a Paragon answer. Can't agree more.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Yeah, but MapleLegends isn't pay to win nor is it vote to win.

    If you're going to mention GMS's items, Chaos Scrolls dropped from monsters, so people had a way to obtain items.

    Not really Mages are going LUKless because the LUK only provides accuracy and being able to put on equips if you're able to hit the monster why go LUK?

    I mentioned Oddjobs as an inspiration, as in "Oh wow! They're able to play like this and enjoy it!" I wonder what they find enjoyable.. -proceeds to make one- (Mine, an islander.) DANG! THIS IS GREAT! Its fun af!

    (I've sometimes lost track of time playing my islander, than going on my Bishop/Night Lord.) HP washing is in the same boat with enjoyment.

    I've never mentioned bosses when I talked about Oddjobs though, on the island theres only

    • Green Snails.
    • Blue Snails.
    • Shrooms.
    • Stumps.
    • Red Snails.
    • Slimes.
    • Pigs.
    • Orange Mushrooms.
     
  9. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    MapleStory made their game in light of people NOT gaining higher levels from the amount of damage the mobs dealt, so once people hit "insane" levels past 120 they made 4th job, they never intended it to get that far.

    They wanted people to repeatedly make a new character until they got to about the same level having them purchase NX for looks. But people broke though that, MapleStory did indeed "fix" hp washing in subsequent versions which also killed the game later on, see HP washing gives in turn more HP but what else does it do?

    Thats correct you've mentioned it, leeching.

    What does leeching do? It gets people involved together possibly talking to each other in between FMAs (Full Map Attacks) if they're a mage, getting people together socializing is and was a great thing that MapleStory had, now fast forward to GMS now.

    What do you see?
    • Do you see people going into PQs? No.
    • Do you see people socializing? No.
    • Do you see Free Market there? Yes, is it used? No, theres Auction House.
    • Do you see people bossing in parties in GMS? No, you can go inside solo and kill it yourself.

    Where is the game going? Is MapleStory one player mode? Is it an MMORPG, or is it an RPG?

    How does HP washing not make sense? It helps not get one shot by monsters making the game more comfortable to play and enjoy later on, if you're going to mention Endgame, Endgame is having to boss and those bosses aren't going to be like "Oh, hey there 5.6k HP Night Lord I am Targa I go zoom-zoom and hug you~ Oh no.. I dealt 9.5k damage and you died, haha~"
    Targa.png OnionPissed

    Oh, so leeching is no different from botting I never knew another human is considered a third-party program.

    OnionHi
    Hi Third-Party program! I'm Voxtagrams, a human nice to meet you.
    I hope you enjoy the game! /s

    OP doesn't know what they're talking about, they basically want everything removed listing what isn't deemed "correct" in their mind, and wants to spew it around and ruin it for others just because they don't/want to do it themself.

    Completely true but they're just too stubborn and lazy to do something that everyone else did, like I've seen about 30 or more low levels go into the FM asking for mesos for potions but then later on see them again on a different character with them thanking me for the 1.5mil~3mil I gave them.. Like sure if you want some help I'll help you the best way I can even if you get 12 Chaos Scrolls or White Scrolls in a row you want some mesos for potions, I'm up for that.

    I don't know if they want to keep them for later to scroll up their Red Cravens, Elemental Wands, etc. and even if they choose to sell them, the meso that I gave them still helped them in the long run.
    -
    Now if something would make them emulous to mutilate HP washing for others that are still doing it, is devastating is just sad.

    I'm not Jon Taffer/Gordon Ramsay but you saying this is such a redundant way of describing HP washing.

    Uhh, I don't think you know how the 'EXP curve' with higher level leech gives the lower level.

    If I leech my level 15 with my level 125 Bishop its going to get +1 EXP each kill.. would you want to self leech yourself +1 exp or get +11 exp per kill?

    If you're complaining about mesos being a problem and that people are buying leech calling them lazy is exacerbating, just because someone has a mage that they can leech for them self they can't go to another place to gain good exp for their lower level does this clarify things a bit?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Apologies for I just saw it. So, without event rings, its possible to get estimated 7.1k HP without washing? Thats great news, I've never knew that.
    The comeback however, highly depends on when the player learns about HP washing. If its about level 120, den he gotta hold 80 int for the next 80 levels (all the way till 200) unless he had decided to do MP washing in-between.

    Kalash's extreme route is probably well, too extreme. I don't think telling anyone to wait for 3m NX to make a comeback gonna go well.

    But regarding the 80 INT from level 120, if the player has 248,000 NX and is willing to go through this mess, then I guess yeah, regarding comebacks, I can only agree with you at this point.

    Most people feels butthurt when people disagree with them, or even got name-called out. When that happens, they lose composure and starts to use whatever illogical reasoning to 'stand-by' their point. While I'm not asking anyone of you to do so, if you try to see through this bullshit, sometimes its possible to see the legitimate concern (the root cause of his first post) instead of the endless arguments of rage & illogical replies that leads to nowhere.

    I agree with you, HP washing is part of identity. This server advertise as HP washing optional however.
    And yes, while I'm aware Kimmy is finding ways to add HP, not everyone is aware about it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. healskys
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    healskys Slime

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    Don’t have to be sarcastic and hostile here.

    It’s obvious that I compared leeching to botting because in both instances, you don’t even have to touch the keyboard to level up. Of course botting is different because of a 3rd party software, everyone knows that, that’s why it’s illegal. You name me another activity in the game that allows you to gain exp at such an insane rate WHILE YOU AFK? That is why leeching has such a bad reputation amongst all players. Whether or not it’s legal doesn’t change the fact that similar to botting, someone else is playing the game for you while your character levels up on its own.

    You brought up a whole chunk of straw man argument in your assertion of the downfall of GMS. The biggest reason is its shift to a power-hungry meta, where damage is everything. I refuse to believe you’re being serious in saying that leeching is a party-play where people communicate with each other. It’s the very concept of things like leeching that has caused GMS into its state of solo-play. Leeching is a means to an end: meaning you do so (especially if you’re a veteran player) because you want to level your character fast to do endgame bosses. Especially when coupled with the concept of HP-washing, where you pump so much base int into your attacker, your only option of levelling is leeching. Where is the original .62 concept of party-play here when leeching dominates the scene? You are contradicting yourself here.

    I didn’t want to come to the forums again because my first reply came after reading a whole lot of toxicity and name-calling. Your post validates that. Have a good day.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  12. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    I don't think you know how botting works, let alone macroing, if you use a third-party program to do something you aren't able to use your computer during the process, if someone is leeching for you, you are able to use the same computer during that time.

    For an example back in League of Legends people never wanted to play from level 1 to level 30 so people would go over and buy fresh level 30 accounts with a handful of champions that they want to play. When the champion Elise was released I made a repeatable script that would locate the play button locate random from the champion list and select it, locate lock-in and have it record mouse clicks until the enemy AI would end the game rewarding EXP and getting to level 30.

    However Riot Games found out about it and removed "1v1" Co-Op Vs AI that would gain exp, the game would need 5 humans 5 AI to be able to gain anything.

    Since the program/app would have to locate what you would want on the screen if a window popped up over lets say the 'play button' it wouldn't allow you to continue because its not able to locate it.

    Hope that gave you some insight on how things that you're mentioning works.
     
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  13. OP
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    Jesseaw
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    Jesseaw Orange Mushroom

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    Yeah I'm pretty much done posting in this thread. I dont know if some of these people are just not native english speakers, not to bright, or intentionally misleading people. Either way trying to lead a conversation here is impossible.
     
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  14. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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  15. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    There are tons of well written and comprehensive posts here that explain why these things are in place the way they are in the server. Your replies never address those. You just cherry pick things to answer to and call out tOxIciTY or click agree on those giving you the echo chamber answers you want. You yourself admit you don't have much experience in the game because you have social life blablabla. You have a character with way overpumped INT, meaning you are operating on misinformation.

    And yet, the people here are not too bright and intentionally misleading people.

    There is also a reason why "leading a conversation here" seems "impossible". That's because threads like yours, which you might think are really revolutionary and title with self important terms like "manifesto", have already surfaced again and again and again and again throughout the 5 years fof this server's lifespan. The people here are sick of dealing with it, including Kim who has talked about this on many occasions. Yet the threads keep on coming, and only AioriaX and some of the more patient GMs have the patience to give civic answers (not that you answered to any of those points though). Time and again uninformed/misinformed new players have all these grand ideas of completely uprooting the culture of a nostalgic server.

    Besides that, they are often filled with disingenious points that attempt to sound smart and informed but really are riddled with misinformation. For example the batshit comparison of leeching to botting above. Or using absolute terms like "the fact that washing is a plague" or "doesn't change the fact that leeching is similar to botting" when these are clearly opinions, to denigrate anyone trying to argue against it by implying that they cannot differentiate between fact and opinion.

    Not to mention cherry-picking what is nostalgic and what is not based on whether or not it is advantageous to them. Washing was basically not practiced in GMS outside of select few whales. Leeching was widespread as fuck, I distinctly remember in MapleSEA we called it "buying spam". Yet both of these are often pooled together in a category of "not nostalgic".

    So given all the above, why would long term players bother to engage in so called "conversations" that appear literally once every month and always show the same points?

    To use the analogy Siggy created comparing ML to a restaurant (which I think is a fantastic analogy, even if I could not disagree more on the points), the rational consumer would just leave and go the restaurant that does not have what they perceive as "dogshit", rather than be the Karen that stays in the restaurant complaining to everyone and leaving graffiti on the walls insulting the restaurant's owners and insisting every loyal customer there is brainwashed/evil or some such hyperbole.

    "But muh new players", you say. Well I've been here since 2k17 and the server has still grown substantially and I make new friends all the damn time despite all these so called "UN-NOSTALGIC" mechanics. If I was the server owner (and thank fuck I'm not, imagine having to deal with this playerbase and its perpetual immaturity), I wouldn't worry at all about the player drop out. People who like the server enough for all its positive/uncontroversial qualities will stay. Those who get frustrated at their first character being unable to bOss comforTABlY and don't have the interest to remake can leave, the player numbers have shown that it doesn't matter.

    I'll say again that I'm a single-character maining player who did not wash my character and did not spend a single meso on leech from level 1-170. The only mules I have are an NLC pot mule and an Owl mule.
     
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  16. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Perhaps you can make another reply in bullet points - and for every point you make, I'll do my best to directly address your point - based on my thoughts and what others have stated.
    then we will know if we are the one selectively reading, or you just cannot handle anyone who disagree with you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    It was jesscapades that used the genius restaurant term, but Siggy just took it and made it into a poogers comment about dogsht in ramen, it still wasn't justified by them.

    I'd also like to see their thoughts with bullet points stating issues, along with your replies to them of course :D
     
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  18. Siggy
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    Siggy Slimy

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    Hey hey hey, the original restaurant analogy didn't make sense, I framed it in a way that actually made sense. Give me my credit!

    All arguments aside, I think no matter how much people complain (myself included) HP washing and leeching are core fundamentals to ML. Does that make them good? No, not automatically, and certainly not imo. Is there an easy way to change it? Maybe at the start of the server, but probably not now. Is it still fun to disparage filthy leechers? Yes, quite! MapleLegends offers a lot of great GMS-like opportunities that other servers don't offer, which is why telling someone to go to a different server if they voice their opinions about these issues is unhelpful. I keep coming back because of ML's community and everything else it has to offer, and despite leechers and HP washing, I still have fun. I appreciate everybody's opinion in this thread even if I disagree and act harsh (it's all jokes!).
     
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  19. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    I'm confused why a lot of people think selling leech is 0 work. Sure your ult hits a lot of mobs at once, but you need to move a lot and time things perfectly for some maps. I would say leeching perfectly is the hardest thing most players do in the game (unless you're akash at HT :whistling:). I'm pretty sure NLs can literally take a nap during zak and HT. Playing BM is entirely a 1 button class.
     
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  20. healskys
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    healskys Slime

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    I’ll preface by saying that I never intended to hold a “holier than thou” mentality regarding these issues, neither do I believe any of the suggestions of OP will be implemented, because these are complex issues.

    On a deeper level, the point of suggestions is not necessarily to elicit change, but to spark logical debates, so we know how to move forward as a server with clearer intentions and ideas.

    You yourself said that posts like OP keep coming up over and over again. The fact that this happens proves that there is something fundamentally wrong with the things being brought up, doesn’t it?

    Talk about HP washing. Hypothetically speaking, if this entire system could be removed and replaced with something better, would you be keen to accept it? That is the heart of the matter in debates, to keep an open mind, avoid name-calling, and see how things can be better moving forward. But instead, you seem to derail the sentiments of these new players as “perpetual immaturity”.

    Case study: I agree with everything you said except the part where you criticised my comparison of leeching to botting as “batshit”. A couple of people sarcastically voted it as a “funny” comparison too, so I’d really like to hear counter arguments to my comparison. You and others label my comparison as “batshit”, “funny” but do not providing any counter arguments to it. What I hear from you is “that comparison is batshit because it’s batshit, period.” That isn’t a legit argument.

    Because so far, nobody has addressed this issue of leeching being so fucking good relative to other methods of levelling.

    I’m not the first to come out and say that leeching is blatantly overpowered. Sure, you might have to pay for it, but anyone who analyses it cost-to-benefits will be able to say that it’s benefits outweigh its costs significantly. When I was grinding on my 40 base int 10x Hermit at Mannequins, I got around 4m xp/hr. I paid for leech at Skele/Petri and got 20m xp/hr. That is 5 times more than grinding. Isn’t this leeching system fundamentally flawed in this sense?
    Apart from the input cost of mesos, buying leeching is EFFORTLESS, that’s why I compare it to botting (albeit a crude analogy), because both require no effort.

    I can literally jerk off to prawn for an hour, switch tabs and boom, my character levelled 2 times. ???

    I don’t derive any satisfaction from levelling from leeching, because someone else is playing the game for me. It becomes a means to an end: to reach a certain level to boss.

    Then again, I’m in no position to tell another person how to play the game, but this is a sentiment that many others have echoed in their stance against leeching (or at least make it less overpowered).
     
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