1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Manifesto On The 3 Main Problems Plaguing The Server

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Jesseaw, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. Jesseaw
    Offline

    Jesseaw Orange Mushroom

    31
    4
    26
    Nov 25, 2020
    Male
    2:59 AM
    TheMagicStik
    Beginner
    10
    Preface:
    Hey guys I'm a relatively new player on this server been on for about 4 months and I'm really enjoying it but there are a couple of things I feel are a major problem. Now I'm not exactly a veteran on this server but for the patches this server has I had a Nightlord and a Bishop on GMS (which was also a long time ago to be fair). So these are my 3 big problems with this server based on my new player experience and drawing from my time on GMS.

    HP Washing:
    You knew it was coming, one of the most contested topics on the server, HP washing is an extreme detriment to all new players and most importantly it goes against GMS. Yes I know HP washing was in GMS but for anybody who played back in the day it was not a popular thing, I personally knew of it but didn't know personally anybody who did it even with 2 4th jobbers. On GMS you would have to throw away hundreds and maybe thousands of dollars to wash one character so a couple of whales might have been able to do it but not the majority, not even close.
    The truth is HP washing is an exploit, a bug that should have been patched out a long time ago. Yes without it the game is much harder but Nightlords should not be able to have 30k hp, it breaks with GMS and it destroys class identity.
    I know it's shitty that a ton of people put a ton of time into this exploit and it would suck for them to remove it but in the same vein people who have used exploits to gain mesos or exp get that which they gained taken away if not banned and it's really not that different of a scenario here. Having 30k hp on a traditionally squishy class is cheating as much as duping currency is.
    The other obvious downside of HP washing is the need to put int, sometimes in the hundreds onto characters that gain no benefits from it. This makes it so much harder for new players to level solo and combine that with the fact that a bulk of the PQ's are dead it basically incentivizes another major problem, leeching.

    Leeching:
    Another thing that existed in GMS as a minority problem but is the main thing people seem to level with on this server. Yes a couple of the maps at the high end had leechers on GMS but nowhere near the prevalence on this server and the endless leechers were simply not a thing on the lower level maps. The fact that a level 55 has to contest with level 140+ AM's/Bishops for hours to find a free GS2 map is wrong. The fact that the fastest way to get to Nightlord is to level a Bishop first is wrong. The fact that people are incentivized to afk level rather than party leveling ruins the game.
    When every PQ past EPQ is dead and every farming spot is filled to capacity with leechers, your game is in a bad state. The fact that leeching is so good has completely skewed the class balance forcing people who want to play efficiently to start mage. Different classes should have strengths and weaknesses but it feels like in ML that Bishops are nearly mandatory because of their ability to sell leech.
    Much like HP washing leeching is heavily enabled by the changes from GMS thusly making ML different than GMS but for the worse here. The main factors being x2 mob exp, the need for hp washing, and the last problem on my list multiboxing mules.

    Multiboxing Mules:
    I honestly haven't seen this talked about too much in a negative light on this server but this for me is kind of like the cherry on top of problems. Multiboxing in of itself is not that big of a problem but it's the culture that it has created on the server that is the problem. What I mean by this is that there are numerous guides on self leech on this server, basically people are actively promoting individual play rather than party play and I feel that this is so very different than GMS and very much so goes against the concept of Maplestory itself.
    The truth is that certain classes are always going to be more sought after in certain scenarios but the benefit of having a varied crew was always the variety of buffs available to you. However with numerous players on this server having a mule for every buff possible the need and the very culture of having to band together with maybe slightly less desirable classes starts to vanish.
    And again for the 3rd time I know multiboxing was done on GMS back in the day but iirc you had to use 3rd party software to do it and it was against the rules. Here it's the norm and even encouraged, I don't believe that is healthy for probably the same reasons GMS did not, it reduces party play and alienates new players and vets.

    Goal:
    So what's my overall goal here with this post? If you've read any of this you'll note that these 3 issues share a common trait, they existed on GMS but they were such a minority that they weren't a problem and it's different and worse on this server. In essence I want this server to be more in line with the GMS of old, there are a lot of changes that are fantastic on this server, these 3 are not good and should be fixed. I really like this server, it's the closest to perfect out of all the ones I have seen and I want this server to be able to thrive and grow and I think with a couple of changes it could in a big way.

    Suggestions:
    1. I know HP washing goes hand in hand with the voting system and this servers sustainability so to fix HP washing you need to first fix the incentive to vote. I think voting should basically be a subscription service to the benefits of the server aka gacha drops, nx drops, event drops, and exp changes. This incentivizes people to continue to vote but no longer as a means to hp wash.
    2. HP-increase scrolls dropped from certain mobs/ bosses limited to those utilizing the sub service but they cap out at a certain amount making warriors max hp around 30k or at 30k and squishy classes like thief around half that. This would decrease the max hp for some incredibly washed characters but likely bring it up for most which would retain balance for the game and class identity.
    3. Leeching seems to be a much simpler problem, simply remove peoples ability to leech from characters that are 20+ levels above them. This allows people to be carried by stronger friends at lower levels while enabling people to continue to leech at the stagnating 4th jobs. What it primarily removes is Bishops/AM's in low level zones.
    4. Buff all PQ's besides KPQ/LPQ/EPQ people need a place to congregate, make friends, and level, that is the PQ's job and besides those 3 pqs they are all dead. With this people who want to play in parties have an easier time doing PQ's and people who want to play solo have an easier time finding an open map to grind.
    5. Make it harder for people to multibox, don't let them do it without a 3rd party client, actively search for people multiboxing and give them temp bans. Keep the temp bans at around 12 hrs, nothing big, just puts a little fear into people for multiboxing and removes the incentive. Make people who want to multibox HAVE to go the extra step to do it and potentially stall their day if you catch them.

    If you liked what I had to say or wanna make fun of me feel free to hit me up on IGN: TheMagicStik (I have no friends)

    Disclaimer: With this post I'm not making demands, I'm not crying, and I dont intend to quit even if these things don't change (even though I'm temp banned lol). This is just a list of things I have identified on the server that seem problematic to me. If any of these things happened I would be happy and I would thank the devs profusely but I'm content as is. Thank you to all who have provided constructive criticism, I'm sorry that I can't help but reply to trolls.
     
    • Agree Agree x 14
    • Disagree Disagree x 13
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Siggy
    Offline

    Siggy Slimy

    236
    56
    231
    Jun 12, 2017
    Male
    California
    2:59 AM
    I pretty much agree with everything you've said but I don't think any of it will ever change. Right now it feels pretty daunting to start a new character without being funded, and to get funded, the only real way is to start a Bishop and start selling leech, and therefore contributing to the problem. New players without funds have to grind and farm drops, but are unable to do so because primary maps are taken by leechers and leech sellers, new players can't farm and the cycle continues. I know I'll get some replies saying there are plenty of other maps to farm on and so on, but c'mon, pushing new players to go to worse maps with worse spawn/drops is just unfair imo.

    And HP washing is shit. Always has been, always will be. Awful mechanic.

    Edit: something I saw recently was people selling popular maps... like c'mon. Make that not allowed, at least.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  3. akashsky
    Offline

    akashsky Horntail

    2,069
    862
    495
    Jun 10, 2017
    Male
    United States
    2:59 AM
    Disparity
    Corsair
    200
    Pasta
    Honestly, you people treat hp washing like it is some kind of plague and that characters with base int are somehow crippled beyond belief and are unable to do anything.

    In reality this is not the case, and if you took some time to learn more about the server and the game, you would learn that it really isn't as bad as you make it seem.
     
    • Agree Agree x 38
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
  4. Siggy
    Offline

    Siggy Slimy

    236
    56
    231
    Jun 12, 2017
    Male
    California
    2:59 AM
    tbh HP washing is a plague. why the hell do I gotta do math equations to figure out how to play the children's anime game without being a total scrub?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
    • Agree Agree x 4
  5. Cak33
    Offline

    Cak33 Headless Horseman

    819
    342
    371
    Oct 24, 2019
    Male
    5:59 PM
    NotCut3
    Hero
    172
    Active
    I agree with your point. But I believe this is not the OP's main concern.
    The bigger concern is about HP washing having no limits, and 30k NL is possible, tho difficult.
    And from that point-of-view, I agree with him.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. SapphireJ
    Offline

    SapphireJ Dark Stone Golem

    132
    31
    151
    Aug 30, 2017
    Male
    5:59 PM
    HarmonyMagic
    Beginner
    1
    Agape
    I am just going to repeat what akashsky says.

    Also, I have already answered OP in another thread that this system has been going on for MapleLegends for years and it does not make sense nor is it healthy for majority of the current player base, for the ML administration to suddenly change one of the pillar points or economy of this game to a new direction considering it has been already been successful for nearly 6 years now. Then its going to be the other way -- it's going to please new players that have OP's point of view or expectation, while it makes the old/veteran player base unhappy and they are just going to feedback that whatever that took them a few months of even years to do (such as washing, leech selling, etc) now can be done in a few weeks or days.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. Siggy
    Offline

    Siggy Slimy

    236
    56
    231
    Jun 12, 2017
    Male
    California
    2:59 AM
    one of the worst outlooks is preventing a good change because people had it harder previously.

    edit: lmao at the disagrees, speak up bbs
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 13
    • Agree Agree x 8
  8. Motto
    Offline

    Motto Skelegon

    1,067
    1,139
    428
    Jun 30, 2018
    Male
    Mars
    11:59 AM
    PogShad Motto
    Islander
    201
    A big hard NO we removed the pay2vote issues we had before, right now voting is good as it is.

    This can work but you're forgetting players duo-ing maps like Shaolin 7f or ToT where players can legit be 40-50 LVLs different.

    This goes with a hard pass NO I know there are sweaty players that will basically use a second or third PC just to get mules going, especially when you think of FM stores, fame mules and such.
    It would go from easy access to "if you're rich ensign enough to own multiple PCs you can multi client".

    -
    As akash is saying, you're not obligated to HP wash or to put a lot in INT gear up you can play almost 99% of the game without using the mechanic (you won't be able to do PB and Toad)

    In the future I'll be making a giga thread about washing, washing mechanics, washing calculations and so on.
    I will explain all that there is to explain.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  9. geospiza
    Offline

    geospiza Web Developer Staff Member Web Developer

    212
    449
    215
    Apr 16, 2020
    2:59 AM
    geospiza
    Dark Knight
    146
    Funk
    I want to comment on one particular point because it's not always obvious the implications of implementing a specific policy.

    In last year's anniversary patch (2020-05-22), the admin team decided to add multi-client checks to the big expeditions like Zakum and Horntail. It addressed both muling issues that existed at the time and the effects of a massive population boom from external events. It turned out to be a prescient policy, as there was enormous overcrowding of bosses that lead to sniping and drama in August (2020-08-09). The procedure was reversed in the Halloween balance patch (2020-08-30) after addressing specific issues with dex buccs and HH mules.

    Disabling multi-clienting was a useful tool for achieving a significant balance change. It was inconvenient in other ways that might not be obvious, though:
    • Some people couldn't run the game without turning off their hypervisor or chip-level virtualization features (see this issue about the anniversary patch affecting AMD chips and Windows 10 Pro). Since they turned off the multi-client checks, I can finally use some of my development tools again (like Docker).
    • Some users playing on macOS inside of a VM were no longer able to play. Apple made some decisions to drop 32-bit support, so the provided Mac-wrapper doesn't work on newer versions of the OS.
    Disabling multi-client would be unpopular, and it would definitely be inconvenient for people like me. A wishy-washy implementation of disabling native multi-client and forcing people to go through VMWare/Virtualbox won't change the mule situation enough to warrant the inconvenience.

    And just to briefly touch on some of the other suggestions. (3) sounds like it could be effective, although it probably affects the composition of bossing teams. Instead of a flat cutoff, an exponential decay might be a little easier to swallow. There also seem to be some other existing anti-leeching methods, like the ones used in the Halloween event for determining active party members. (4) is a good suggestion; there are various threads that suggest buffing OPQ and MPQ, which are fun but much less effective than holding one button at a meta-map. It's also possible to buff PQs to the point where it's almost impossible to collect the reward without out-leveling it (glittering earrings at EPQ).
     
    • Like x 3
    • Agree x 3
    • Disagree x 1
    • Great Work x 1
    • Informative x 1
  10. OP
    OP
    Jesseaw
    Offline

    Jesseaw Orange Mushroom

    31
    4
    26
    Nov 25, 2020
    Male
    2:59 AM
    TheMagicStik
    Beginner
    10
    I feel like I outlined my thoughts on the subject pretty thoroughly, do you have any rebuttal to anything I said or just that it's not that bad?

    Don't you think that if you have to say that "it really isn't as bad" that you imply that it is bad and if it is bad, why not change it? Why not replace it entirely?

    Honestly I'm not crippled that bad on my hermit at 97 but it definitely curbs my enjoyment of the game to not power up at all every level, I just have to invest more in int to reach my hp goal at 150.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  11. Motto
    Offline

    Motto Skelegon

    1,067
    1,139
    428
    Jun 30, 2018
    Male
    Mars
    11:59 AM
    PogShad Motto
    Islander
    201
    What HP Goal at LVL 150, I'm sorry but I'm a washing god, and I understand what is / isn't required for bossing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. OP
    OP
    Jesseaw
    Offline

    Jesseaw Orange Mushroom

    31
    4
    26
    Nov 25, 2020
    Male
    2:59 AM
    TheMagicStik
    Beginner
    10
    I think the goal was to avoid getting 1 shot at Horntail (idk if thats attainable for me) so 6800 assuming I get a monster book ring.
     
  13. Motto
    Offline

    Motto Skelegon

    1,067
    1,139
    428
    Jun 30, 2018
    Male
    Mars
    11:59 AM
    PogShad Motto
    Islander
    201
    I have to stop you there because, as can be deduced from a nice thread [1], looking at the goal of "HT at LVL 155" is unreasonable, you either have the fundings of a god that makes you do the same DPS as a lvl 170+ NL, else you're not going to join a HT run.

    I have to describe that, in sufficient terms, 6man HT runs are the norm now, going above that means the party is not as efficient / good as it could've been.

    By simple math :
    1. LVL 155 you'd have HP 3800 clean, with tier 10 ring, ellin ring you'd be at close HP 5000 (give or take)
    2. A thief gains HP 18 for every MP 12 washed away
    If you are to attain INT 50 (gear or base) from LVL 50, you'd be gaining 5mp * 105 LVLs = 525mp
    This means that, you'd be able to wash 525mp / 12mp = 43washes
    Means that, with those 43washes*22hp you'd be looking at HP 5950 at LVL 155 (HP 9500 with HB)
    ^ At LVL 170 you'd be looking (with no more washes) at 5950 + 18*15 = HP 6220

    You can see that, even without sweating too much, by starting at LVL 50 you can easily get close by to the bossing capabilities required for most of the game bosses.
    Zhelm INT+15, Sheriff Dep Star INT+5, Bathrobe INT+10 and thats already +30 from equips, give or take a 20 Base INT.

    My calculations are based on the fact that you start having INT 50 form LVL 50!!
    So, if you compound the gains from LVL 1, you'd be maybe looking at a more detailed mp gain formulas such as :
    2mp * 20 (first 20 LVLs)
    + 3mp * 30 (20~30 with bathrobe)
    = 130mp (thats another 10 washes, aka HP 180 to add)

    [1] https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...washing-to-be-optional-on-maplelegends.26370/ , akashky
    "Note that level 155* is not well suited for bosses like horntail. Saying you want to horntail at 155 is like saying you want to grind skeles at level 108. Chances are you are too weak to do significant damage unless you are extremely funded. For bosses like horntail, you typically need to be high 16x or even 18x depending on your funding to do decent damage and contribute to the boss run."
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  14. Cak33
    Offline

    Cak33 Headless Horseman

    819
    342
    371
    Oct 24, 2019
    Male
    5:59 PM
    NotCut3
    Hero
    172
    Active
    I can't comment on HT on such levels, but if one were to prepare for PB using current meta (10-11k), wouldn't it be likely to hit 6800k HP at lvl 155?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Precel
    Offline

    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

    1,795
    247
    460
    Nov 13, 2018
    Male
    5:59 AM
    Precel
    Priest
    100
    Spirit
    Honestly all those issues come from the toxic culture of min-maxing. Unfortunately it's only obvious that this nearly two-decades-old game would be optimized by veterans.

    Not saying that your suggestions are invalid, but rather everyone will have a different opinions on how "broken" min-maxing is and therefore you'll have a very hard time getting everyone to agree on something. Not to mention, even if these things get changed, people will still try to optimize further and there will always be complaints on those new shiny features.

    So the question is, where do we stop?

    For example, I have to point at the irony of your 5th suggestion: "Make it harder for people to multibox." (FYI the correct term is multiclient, as actual multiboxing would be against the TOS) ML removed multiclient limits because it created an unfair environment against people without VM and/or multiple computers. Say we implement this suggestion, would this really change anything? You'll just end up seeing more guides on multiclient workarounds & poor will get poorer while rich get richer. This would regurgitate the essential problem of the toxic min-maxing culture, at least in my personal opinion.

    Just something to ponder on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 25
  16. Daydreamer
    Offline

    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

    718
    243
    376
    Jul 8, 2017
    Male
    2:59 AM
    I/L Arch Mage
    I agree with what you point out as issues. Honestly, I think HP washing is a severe, game-breaking bug exploit and should be outright removed from the game. Similarly, I think leech should be functionally removed with massive diminishing returns to party XP starting with a level difference of 20. With this server being around for about 6 years now, this is unfortunately not really possible. Removing washing entirely would mean either resetting everybody's HP and MP, thereby completely fucking over everybody who invested massive amounts of time and mesos into washing, or it would mean preventing new players from washing and ever getting the kind of HP of older players. The only sensible thing to do, at this point, is to find ways to make HP washing unnecessary. In the past, monster book ring was good enough to where HP washing was barely optional, but with the release of Pink Bean I don't think this is the case anymore. That being said, I'm sure staff are looking into this. Personally I'd like to see changes to how weapon defense and magic defense work to make them meaningful stats, but this is maybe too custom and far-reaching of a change to be considered.

    Your suggestion for voting is interesting, but I don't think it really works. As it is currently, staff are working hard to remove player reliance on GTOP voting. This is because GTOP is extremely unreliable. I personally cannot vote many days as GTOP thinks I've already voted, and I'm not the only one with this issue. It becomes even more of a mess for people with multiple accounts.

    HP-increasing items is something I really like. Royals has this, though on there it's a difficult once-per-day quest that gives only 10 HP. Kinda useless. I think this could work if implemented well, though.

    PQs could benefit from buffs, but I think a bigger issue with buffs is relatively low population (compared to GMS) and that's not an easily surmountable challenge. Even GMS had dead PQs. I think a bigger issue is the lack of PQs at higher levels (100+), though I guess that's what bossing and CWKPQ are for.

    Multiboxing annoys me too btw. Mainly because I cannot run multiple clients without dropping to less than 20 FPS on my PC. I don't think it should be outright banned though. Most people are not using more than 2 or 3 clients for buff mules and if you want to be a sweaty tryhard and play 3+ 4th-job mages at once, then more power to you. An EXP and droprate nerf to multiclienting might work, but I don't know about implementation. What I would like to see is linked skills so that people can benefit from party skills they've maxed on other characters... but I don't think y'all are ready for that thread.

    This server probably has the lowest barrier to entry of any of the major servers available right now and even lower than pre-BB GMS. Costs are low and moneymaking relies on farming, not voting, pay2win, or economic speculation. It may seem daunting or difficult at first, but really it's only an issue (IMO) if you choose to play a Bowmaster, NL, or Corsair-- classes that require both HP washing and funding to be successful. Almost every other class can do decently as a first character. You don't need a Bishop at all. You don't even need a mage, though obviously in pre-BB MapleStory the best farming jobs make the most money. People will tell you differently because, with an old game like this, people feel that the game is "solved" and have metagamed the fun out of MapleStory. Yes, there is a best way of doing things, but there's plenty of viable ways to do things differently and enjoy the game.

    Edit: by the way, there are loads of very profitable early game maps to farm. This is, IMO, one of the strengths of pre-BB MapleStory. Mobs like Nightghosts, Drakes, Stone Masks, etc. are profitable all the way from 2nd job to endgame. It's certainly not as profitable as selling Ulu2 leech or whatever, but it's also way easier and more relaxed to farm at. The reality is that unless you have a perfectionist min-max mentality or want to do Pink Bean, you do not need perfect gear or anything even close to that. You can absolutely make some quick mesos farming scrolls and gacha tickets and fund a character that can complete 90% of lategame content.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  17. AioriaX
    Offline

    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

    211
    89
    210
    Jul 25, 2017
    Male
    5:59 PM
    AioriaX
    Night Lord
    200
    Beaters
    You don't need to wash to 30k, you don't need to leech, you don't need to train at the heavily contested map if you didn't chance upon an empty one, and you don't need to make your own mules to enjoy the game.

    Everyone has their own goals and achievements to hit in the game, and everyone has their own way to enjoy the game content, and their own ways to make mesos.

    If you compare yourself to others that have found the easiest way to:
    1. kill bosses
    2. make mesos
    3. level up their characters
    4. solo-play with multiple mules,
    then you will find yourself sad and frustrated that you will never get it as easy as they have, if you are not willing to put in the equal amount of sweat and effort.

    HP washing is a broken exploit it is true, and a degree of washing is also required - that is true, but it need not be extreme. You don't need to have 200 base INT and make your character feel unplayable (also when compared to other players). You just need to find your own way to do it with the amount of effort you are willing to put into.

    It is not easy to make a 30k HP ranged character. It requires a patient duration of voting up to 6m NX, a large amount of effort to farm AP resets during events rather than enjoy the other perks provided, as well as great dedication to leech your INT-pumped-character until you are satisfied with the amount of HP you have heavily washed.

    Sweaty players will always exploit the easiest most efficient ways to make mesos / gain exp / kill bosses, no matter the odds. One nerf here leads to a next newly discovered meta. Nerf the mannequin map, and someone else discovers that the best map to grind at is CDs. With the new discovery, people tweak efficiency and sweat it out to find that leeching in the newly popularized map is easy. That makes it more packed. And now people are saying CDs are packed and there are not enough maps. Nerf CDs you say? Another map will just be discovered and soon-to-be-heavily-popularized before someone else asks to nerf it or complain about it - just because they couldn't find a map. (Like please, just move on and train at another map)

    The issue with HP washing is not foreign to this server (trust me, other servers too. It's a Neckson issue), and to ease the required HP for those who opted not to heavily wash (ie. minimize the 'minimum-must-wash' requirement for bossing), staff has given us a myriad of options to gain HP through playable, non-vote-related methods.

    Leeching and HP washing will not go away in this server. I'm sorry but as a new player, you just have to understand that you just have to deal with it.

    What you can do is:
    1. Stop comparing yourself to others and make yourself feel like the hopeless scrub when standing beside someone who has dedicated him/herself to vote for 2-3 years to wash his heavily INT-pumped and heavily leeched character to 30k HP clean. If you are not willing to dedicate yourself to that amount of effort, make do with what you are willing to dedicate yourself to. You don't have time but still want to enjoy the game? Accept a lower tier of HP, but find ways to make yourself more favourable to join bosses - get more damage, be more efficient, organize them yourself.

    2. Find other maps to grind at if you find that leeching maps are not available. Yes they may have been the best maps for EXP, but they are not the only maps where you can gain EXP or earn mesos. You don't want to wake up at 3am to camp for the heavily contested boss or 5-6 shaolin map that is being ridiculously sold for 20m now? Move to other maps. There is always an alternative. Accept that they are more dedicated and sweaty to do it because they are willing to put in that effort. And if you don't want to put in that equal amounts of effort, accept that you will probably need to find other maps and make do with it. The meso-making and EXP-gaining doesn't have to stop. Other players may just not have realized that other maps could be good too until it gets nerfed due to complaints. Discover them yourself (CDs map was always there but due to the old mannequins auto-aggro, no one cared to try until it got nerfed and now discovered that it is OP).

    3. Stop comparing yourself to leechers that make a hefty 30m/hour leech. They have dedicated themselves to make 2 high level mages, and heavily funded their mages with good INT gear to hit mobs harder, and have patiently waited for the heavily contested 5-6 map (or even purchased it for a whopping 20-25m) just to leech and obtain that meso-making efficiency. If you look at them and say ''damn, take leeching away please because I can't make that much too, it's so broken'' then you are just bringing yourself down. There are always other ways to make mesos, no doubt might be less efficient when you compare exact rates of gain, but it is what you get for that amount of effort you are willing to put in.

    I am also a player who did not pump 200-400 INT into my nightlord to make my character feel 'on-par/playable', nor a mage who has amassed a ton of wealth via efficient leeching, or someone who kills everything alone with 15 mules, but that didn't stop me from playing the game. I don't have enough HP to tank all the attacks of every end-game boss even with HB, and require HB for a larger number of bosses to survive. That didn't push me to heavily multi-client, but the game is still very playable.

    No doubt I made mesos much slower, I levelled up much slower as well and grinded in many different ways/maps.

    I am also not making fun of you or criticizing you or anyone. You have great ideas but I'm just merely stating facts that leeching and HP washing will not go away, and you just have to make it work and enjoy the game in your own way/pace and stop comparing yourself to other sweaty or more dedicated players if you are not willing to put in that equal amounts of effort to reach where they are.

    If you take leeching away, population of mages will be massively reduced due to lack of incentive making the class. Can still boss you say? How will new player mages earn the mesos to fund to that level? Grind like other characters? Might as well make the other jobs from the get-go. Equity to existing mages? They will be outright banished from game content.

    Punish mules with 12-hour ban? Sweaty players will just make more mules. Someone already made 200 fame mules, how hard will it be to make two of the same mules and rotate the 12-hour ban? One mule gets banned for 12 hours, use the other mule before it gets banned for 12 hours.

    Make them go the extra step? Trust me, people who are heavily leeching, and especially those who are heavily washing to 30k, are ALREADY going the EXTRA, EXTRA, STEP to do so.
     
    • Agree x 31
    • Great Work x 9
    • Friendly x 5
    • Like x 4
    • Disagree x 2
  18. lv1crook
    Offline

    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

    356
    187
    278
    Jan 19, 2021
    Male
    2:59 AM
    Level1Crook
    Corsair
    1
    Flow
    HP washing is too big, now way it’ll ever get removed. the whole meta of the server revolves around it. I don’t think anyone really believes it is good for the game, but the entire severs identity as we know it would be destroyed without it. Any system that influences the wash mechanic should be supplementary to it (such as the monster book ring, or the RAID TICKET kek). Otherwise it would just be a completely different server.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. ahotbanana
    Offline

    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

    360
    126
    278
    Sep 27, 2015
    Male
    UK
    10:59 AM
    I don't really see any of these as problems to be completely honest.

    MapleStory is a mechanics focussed game and most of the fun (to me at least) is min-maxing as hard as possible. Everything you're complaining about is basically the result of extreme min-maxing.

    While it does seem obvious that HP washing was originally a bug, Neckson designed end-game content around its existence and the idea that people would do it. To keep the game true to the original, it kind of needs to stick around. I refuse to believe I'm the only person who actually likes HP washing as a mechanic and sees it as a neat min-maxing thing you can do in the game.

    It seems like everyone who complains about HP washing suggests ways of replacing it, but I can pretty much categorically say that the HP washing mechanic will never be removed from the server. We already have lots of things in the game that allow you to gain HP without needing to wash at all. We may add more things like the monster ring that allow you to get additional HP through extensive gameplay, reducing the need to HP wash, but you'd still be able to HP wash as well as get whatever we add.

    On leeching: The gameplay itself isn't all that enthralling, really, in my opinion. You stand in a room, holding one button until some numbers go up and you can start holding the same button in a different room. The entertainment, at least to me, comes from seeing those numbers go up much more than it does from holding the button. It's much more satisfying when those numbers go up efficiently. If leeching allows me to get those numbers up faster without compromising efficiency elsewhere, that's what I want and that's what brings me enjoyment.

    Multiclienting (not multiboxing*) is again, a matter of efficiency. To people like me, it makes the game much more enjoyable.

    Of the suggestions you've given, one I actually might be in favour of is to buff PQs. As it stands, PQs are basically just not worth doing unless you want the boss cards or chairs or something else you can only get from the PQ in question. I could make an argument that those create enough of an incentive, and for a lot of people that would be true but I would personally never do any of them. Even on characters with 120+ base int, I've often found that grinding is simply faster exp, especially when you factor in the time it takes to put a party together.

    *To clarify, multiboxing would be setting up multiple areas on your keyboard to control multiple clients at the same time. This would be bannable under our botting rules. Multiclienting is just having multiple clients open at once. You need to make each client the foreground window in turn to take control of it and cast a buff or whatever.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Like Like x 3
  20. Alyosha
    Offline

    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

    942
    759
    413
    Mar 9, 2017
    2:59 AM
    Dostoevsky
    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    There's a lot to making changes in this game, such that I just don't see the implementation of any massive changes without either alienating a significant portion of the player base or committing to a full server wipe, which in itself would alienate a lot more players. Realistically I don't anticipate any changes against those concepts outside of small, incremental changes, maybe in the order of 5-10% effectiveness. One of the more controversial changes were the initial Heaven's Hammer nerfs, which constituted a roughly 20-30% reduction of DPM for Paladins in HT, and was seen as a major controversy by the community. It takes a lot of care to find solutions that don't outright ruin the game for subsets of people while also targeting the things that are seen as problematic, and it's easy enough to make mistakes or to overlook important factors in doing so. It's a part of being human after all, and it takes a toll on a person, especially when it makes you into a semi-public figure answering to a community. It's why I left the staff's Balance Team, while I still enjoy much of the work of balancing there's a strain that comes in recognizing the shift in relationships, and in trying to form a picture of a game that isn't just my own, but also from a community that you are beholden to. A man ain't nothing but a man, but that can change with the right modifiers.

    It's not to say that things can't change, just that it needs to be done carefully. In a vacuum there'd be a lot of stuff I would personally tweak, and I have no doubts that there'd be disagreements about all of it. I'd probably touch all three points in one way or another, but it takes a lot of creative energy to pinpoint exactly what needs to be changed, a lot of coding knowhow to implement, and a lot of diplomatic persuasion to make it happen. It's a long process to work through everything, so some degree of slowness should be expected. In the meantime well thought out suggestions are good, and continue to fuel the debate on these subjects until someone strikes gold.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 4
    • Friendly Friendly x 3

Share This Page