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Potions cost renewal

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Motto, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    Right you just work for the pots industry I'm on to you buddy
     
  2. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    NLC pots have always been comparatively strong, but I think this exposes an issue the other way around; the lack of availability of decent non-NLC pots at high level. Nobody uses sunset dews not only because they are a bad price deal, but because it is either wasteful for non-mages (heal too much mp and just get 1/1d) and laughably ineffective for mage mp consumption. Even at the same price point they would have niche use grinding or by 3rd job mage. % pots not only become more cost effective at higher hp/mp, but also scale the amount of healing to accommodate higher tiers of play.

    If there were more viable options of static healing at various levels, then there would at least be some level of separation from washing being more cost effective in addition to being easier to play. There are hp thresholds not just for tanking a hit, but outhealing a hit with one honster/ale and not needing to rely on things like powers/double potting every hit.

    If purely attempting to tax on potions as a meso sink, imo this actually opens another dimension to balance around. Potion costs are already variable across classes, and while a plus, is not significant enough in most cases to matter to many players. Sadly, as akash pointed out, this becomes a huge plus for the already strong NL, and widens the gap between classes that already get by not spending as much in grinding/boss runs (and makes skills like alchemist, drains, or even the already handy brawler MP recovery a bit stronger too). Itd be interesting to make cost of operation a more impactful element than it already is for balance sake, but with NL simply existing I dont think it the best idea. And mages already laugh at pot costs while controlling the economy. It most certainly wont be the higher tier mages that feel the impact of such a change.
     
  3. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Another possible solution is to instead make cheese/milk cheaper, as to benefit non-washed players, and won't disproportionately help intlords. Most unwashed-lightly washed players will have around 7-8k hp, so honsters heal around 4.2-4.5k hp and cost 2800. It's ridiculous that cheese/milk cost nearly double that and heal the same amount.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    I actually wanted to attack this problem and looked at BiS HP pots that can be bought (else it would defeat the purpose) and we'd be looking at these :
    [​IMG] Ice Cream Pop (2000 HP) @ 2300 meso
    [​IMG] Cherry Pie (2000 HP + 2000 MP, +2wa effect) @ 3000 meso
    [​IMG] Chicken Rice (2200 HP) @ 2200 meso (Alwyn in Singapore)
    [​IMG] Satay (2600 HP) @ 2600 meso (Alwyn in Singapore)
    [​IMG] Melting Cheese (4000 HP) @ 4500 meso
    [​IMG] Reindeer Milk (5000 HP) @ 5600 meso

    If we take into consideration as average a 15k HP (HB or whatever) for bossing we'd look at
    [​IMG] (2000 HP) @ 2300 meso, 15000/2000 = 7.5 * 2300 = 17250 meso (for 100% HP)
    [​IMG] (2000 HP) @ 3000 meso, 15000/2000 = 7.5 * 2300 = 17250 meso(for 100% HP) (+ added effect of 2000MP)
    [​IMG] (2200 HP) @ 2200 meso, 15000/2200 * 2200= 15000 meso
    [​IMG] (2600 HP) @ 2600 meso, 15000/2600 * 2600 = 15000 meso

    [​IMG] (4000 HP) @ 4500 meso, 15000/4000 * 4500 = 3.75 * 4500 = 16875 meso (for 100% HP)
    [​IMG] (5000 HP) @ 5600 meso, 15000/5000 * 5600 = 3 * 5600 = 16800 meso (for 100% HP)

    We can see how, even if at a lower HP per pot, Chicken Rice and Satay come out as BiS for their 1:1 price ratio with >2000 HP.

    If we now take Satay as BiS over at 15k HP we'd have them compared to these NLC bois.
    [​IMG] Hornster (60% HP) @ 2800 meso, 15000 * 0.6 = 9000 HP @ 2800 meso
    [​IMG] Ginseng Root (40% HP/MP) @ 2100 meso, 15000 * 0.4 = 6000 HP @ 2100 meso
    [​IMG] Ginger Ale (75% HP/MP) @ 3800 meso, 15000 * 0.75 = 11250 HP @ 3800 meso
    [​IMG] Satay, 2600 HP @ 2600 meso

    If we simply ratio the effects we'll have
    [​IMG] 9000 HP @ 2800 meso (ratio = 3.21)
    [​IMG] 6000 HP @ 2100 meso (ratio = 2.85)
    [​IMG] 11250 HP @ 3800 meso (ratio = 2.96)

    [​IMG] 2600 HP @ 2600 meso (ratio = 1)
    [​IMG] 4000 HP @ 4500 meso (ratio = 0.88)
    [​IMG] 5000 HP @ 5600 meso (ratio = 0.89)


    Meaning that, in respect to mesos the best HP/meso pot to use would be Hornster at 15k HP (if you want to save on cash, not talking of USE slots).

    If we were to look at NLC pots buffed prices we'd have
    [​IMG] 9000 HP @ 3000 meso (ratio = 3)
    [​IMG] 6000 HP @ 6000 meso (ratio = 1)
    [​IMG] 11250 HP @ 11250 meso (ratio = 1)
    [​IMG] 2600 HP @ 2600 meso (ratio = 1)

    [​IMG] 4000 HP @ 4500 meso (ratio = 0.88)
    [​IMG] 5000 HP @ 5600 meso (ratio = 0.89)


    We have to remember that normally HP pots are close to a ratio of 0.9 to 1 (depends if we take into consideration HP pots that heal MP as well, those ratios can go lower if only looking at HP, but averaged they ratio might raise to maybe 1.1~1.2)
    Goes to show that NLC pots in general have an absurd ratio when looking at washed chars where %-based pots are broken.

    Take this consideration and apply to MP pots and well, see even worse ratios tbh because well, NLC pots have that price and non-% based MP pots are basically 2x the price of HP pots.

    One thing that should be considered would be to bring Melting Cheese and Reinder Milk to their 1:1 ratio, like the Singaporean HP foods.
    (Singaporean MP foods are still 1:2 ratio, as most pots are in game)
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  5. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    I would also add a note about Cherry Pie
    [​IMG] Cherry Pie (2000 HP+2000MP) @ 3000 meso
    We can look at the usual 1:2 ratio and divide it into a

    2000 meso for HP and 4000 meso for MP, the pot though costs 3000 meso meaning that with a 1:3 ratio for HP we'd have
    2000 HP @ 1000 meso, 2000 MP @ 2000 meso

    Meaning that this is the only pot in game that can (at >2000 HP/MP) give a ratio of 1:1 to MP pots and a 2:1 to HP pots.

    If one were to argue about using non-% based pots for general usage, I'd suggest they start hoarding some Pie [​IMG]
    Especially if they've reached a point where Grilled Cheese is not comfortable enough anymore to replenish HP/MP together (or well, depends if you're mostly interested in the +30 wdef buff as well)
     
  6. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    You can buy 1000 Hp/1000MP chocolate for more than Cherry Pie so then Cherry Pie is also broken.
     
  7. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    Same can be said about Grilled Cheese and Pizza, but the cost to 100% HP is still lower than %based pots.
    Thing I forgot to write above

    HP/meso ratio table for 15k HP char
    [​IMG] 9000 HP @ 2800 meso (ratio = 3.21)
    [​IMG] 6000 HP @ 2100 meso (ratio = 2.85)
    [​IMG] 11250 HP @ 3800 meso (ratio = 2.96)
    [​IMG] 2600 HP @ 2600 meso (ratio = 1)
    [​IMG] 4000 HP @ 4500 meso (ratio = 0.88)
    [​IMG] 5000 HP @ 5600 meso (ratio = 0.89)
    [​IMG] 2000 HP @ 3000 meso (ratio = 0.66)


    If we reverse to meso/HP ratio table for a 15k HP char:
    [​IMG] 2800 meso @ 9000 HP (ratio = 0.31)
    [​IMG] 2100 meso @ 6000 HP (ratio = 0.35)
    [​IMG] 2800 meso @ 11250 HP (ratio = 0.24)
    [​IMG] 2600 meso @ 2600 HP (ratio = 1)
    [​IMG] 4500 meso @ 4000 HP (ratio = 1.125)
    [​IMG] 5600 meso @ 5000 HP (ratio = 1.12)
    [​IMG] 3000 meso @ 2000 HP (ratio = 1.5)

    We can then calculate the cost per ratio for filling the entire 15k HP, if we get 1/1 by a boss
    [​IMG] 2800 meso @ 9000 HP (ratio = 0.33) –> 15000 * 0.31 = (2 pots = 5600 meso)
    [​IMG] 2100 meso @ 6000 HP (ratio = 0.35) –> 15000 * 0.35 = (3 pots = 6300 meso)
    [​IMG] 2800 meso @ 11250 HP (ratio = 0.24) –> 15000 * 0.24 = (2 pots = 5600 meso)

    [​IMG] 2600 meso @ 2600 HP (ratio = 1) –> 15000 * 1 = 15000 meso
    [​IMG] 4500 meso @ 4000 HP (ratio = 1.125) –> 15000 * 1.125 = 16875 meso
    [​IMG] 5600 meso @ 5000 HP (ratio = 1.12) –> 15000 * 1.12 = 16800 meso
    [​IMG] 3000 meso @ 2000 HP (ratio = 1.5) –> 15000 * 1.5 = 22500 meso


    And by moving it to more balanced cost for NLC pots:
    [​IMG] 3000 meso @ 9000 HP (ratio = 0.33) –> 15000 * 0.33 = (2 pots = 6000 meso)
    [​IMG] 6000 meso @ 6000 HP (ratio = 1) –> 15000 * 0.35 = (3 pots = 18000 meso)
    [​IMG] 11250 meso @ 11250 HP (ratio = 1) –> 15000 * 0.24 = (2 pots = 22500 meso)
    [​IMG] 2600 meso @ 2600 HP (ratio = 1) –> 15000 * 1 = 15000 meso
    [​IMG] 4500 meso @ 4000 HP (ratio = 1.125) –> 15000 * 1.125 = 16875 meso
    [​IMG] 5600 meso @ 5000 HP (ratio = 1.12) –> 15000 * 1.12 = 16800 meso
    [​IMG] 3000 meso @ 2000 HP (ratio = 1.5) –> 15000 * 1.5 = 22500 meso


    We have that yes, by giving a ratio of 1:1 to % HP/MP they become more expensive, as the fact that they're providing two different replenishments in one bottle, reason being for fixing their prices to be higher, given they're doing two jobs at the cost of one at the moment.
    Which is fair, when compared to Melting Cheese or Reindeer Milk which are HP only pots.
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    But how will this impact the price of Onyx Apple with their 90% hp/90% mp healing?!
     
  9. ma3ohma3
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    ma3ohma3 Chronos

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    There are 2 threads in this: 1) Solving meso sink issues by adjusting pot prices & 2) Sushi issue for Drks

    For 1), How did the implementation at that server turn out? I suppose the meso sink problem still exists? Anyone familiar with Royals can speak out.
    For 2), Yea agree. The sushi situation for DrKs can be made fairer.
     
  10. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    There's a third
    Solving the issue of non-% based pots prices being too unfair in comparison to %-based pots (making people basically just opt to use NLC pots)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. ma3ohma3
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    ma3ohma3 Chronos

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    imagine bossing/selling leech with non-% based pots.
    s>infinity 30 100% svc :D
     
  12. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Don't make DKs into pet pot snooze fests, we have a dozen of those classes already.

    If you wanted a Hero then you should have made a Hero. DKs don't need 100% efficiency, that's how you get a dumbed down game like modern Maple where everyone has a teleport and an ult and the choices are essentially meaningless
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  13. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    I kinda believe that we need meso sinks if the multimage farming culture persists (i hope so) but we aren’t even near of what royals were to adjust pots. They had meso hackers who injected a trillion mesos into the economy (no hyperbole).
    https://youtu.be/_XWmB4bGyho
    I believe we can find another ways to meso sink without changing potions.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  14. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. ma3ohma3
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    ma3ohma3 Chronos

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    Agreed with this. The last time meso injection happened was for gobys and it was subsequently nerfed.
     
  16. Lirbo
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    Heh ty for the suggestion but that's a clear no from me
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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  18. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    Give a reason to lock it.

    Its a good meso sink idea.
    Plus balancing %-based pots to respect DKs Sushi + ratios for non-% based pots
    [​IMG]
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. spammy
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    spammy Slime

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    Bishop in HT:

    Won't run for less than 500% splits.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Lirbo
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    Lirbo Slimy

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    Look, I'll be honest I didn't read the thread but I simply don't wanna pay more and so are many other players, especially mages.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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