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Reduce/remove Bullet Level Restriction.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Siegfried, Mar 14, 2023.

  1. Siegfried

    Siegfried Master Chronos

    Apr 21, 2017
    10:59 PM
    Nothing game breaking-- just makes it nicer for Corsairs 1-4th job grinding.

    Sins have access to Level 10 Illbis which give +27 Att, while Corsairs are stuck at weird level restrictions that are +2 incremental damage buffs (..why?).

    Armor-Piercing Bullets are +22 att but level requirement is level 50, however Eternal Bullets are locked at Level 90 and give +20 att...?

    Considering Sairs don't get anything like Critical Shot/Throw (which are 50% active, +200% crit damage), and buffing Double Shot (again) isn't really necessary, it would be nice to have a small damage buff here (Sins are always stronger than Corsair for most of the game 1-4th job anyways if you Sins feel threatened...) Eternal Bullets are also dirt cheap like Illbis.

    As a side note, since Armor-Piercing Bullets are locked behind Tokyo stuff, could make its level requirement same as the Sin-counterpart...

    Small and easy change that doesn't hurt the any stage of the game or economy, because they're easy hunts as well. Everyone throws them bullets away except APB :(
    • Like Like x 8
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  2. OP

    Siegfried Master Chronos

    Apr 21, 2017
    10:59 PM
    Just want to add some additional info:

    It's been suggested here at the end: https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...ger-changes-id-like-to-see.47369/#post-321191

    However, I'm just asking for this tiny change, as smaller ideas are lean and easy to implement.

    Also, for level restrictions:

    Starting out at min-level 10 and max 50 could be cool for the tiny majority who have APBs on their sub-120 characters.

    Eternal Bullets and below could be level 30 or 50 if we want to be sticklers for arbitrary level requirements, but really they could all be Level 10 or Level 50 (like Crystal Illbis) for the higher end ones.

    Here's a sample chart of how this could look like:

    Bullet (Level 10)
    Attack +10
    Split Bullet ̶(̶L̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶3̶0̶)̶ → Level 10
    Attack +12
    Mighty Bullet ̶ ̶(̶L̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶5̶0̶)̶ → Level 10
    Attack +14
    Vital Bullet ̶(̶L̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶7̶0̶)̶ → Level 10 (or 15?)
    Attack +16
    Shiny Bullet ̶(̶L̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶9̶0̶)̶ → Level 10 (or 15?)
    Attack +18
    Eternal Bullet ̶(̶L̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶1̶1̶0̶)̶ → Level 30 (or 50?)
    Attack +20
    Armor-Piercing Bullet (Level 50) (or 30?)
    Attack +22

    This would also keep backwards compatibility with the minority who are using APB sub-120.

    Blaze and Ice Capsules (Level 70) Attack +16 probably don't any buff here, as they're used for skills. It's a separate discussion altogether to buff the skills relating to them. Please see the original post here. (a GOOD start.)

    This would also help guide people towards different SP builds too (in 3rd job) -- Burst Fire vs Flame / Ice Splitter builds.

    Feel free to experiment with DPS for mobbing/bossing (below 120-- if that even really matters... versus a Thief or Archer.) here if the balance team wants to check numbers (... just use a Coke Zero pill).

    Finally, why this change matters: HP Challenges are going to be a thing, so new corsairs won't need to leech from others in PQs (much to people's annoyance) or mages. Grinding is going to be a focus, so let's improve the (still dismal) experience for new corsairs.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. LeonardoJF

    LeonardoJF Horntail

    Jun 16, 2021
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    2:59 AM
  4. duski

    duski Orange Mushroom

    Dec 30, 2022
    1:59 AM
  5. Azer

    Azer Red Snail

    Mar 21, 2023
    7:59 AM
    Beginner, I/L Mage, Gunslinger
    I have to agree with this
  6. CauTion

    CauTion Master Chronos

    Nov 5, 2019
    8:59 AM
    but u have to consider that sair weapons got a lot more att so i think its pretty balanced
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  7. OP

    Siegfried Master Chronos

    Apr 21, 2017
    10:59 PM
    I don't agree at all, and here's the math.

    From Nise's damage calculator:

    Meaning their actual starting formulae are:

    Lucky Seven/Triple Throw
    MAX = (LUK * 5.0) * Weapon Attack / 100
    MIN = (LUK * 2.5) * Weapon Attack / 100

    Sins outright have a higher multiplier.

    Let's take insert some numbers. Assuming the Gunslinger is STR-less (as much as possible) and DEX-less for Sins.

    At Level 50, assuming DEX/LUK is around 290 (Base 255; with some basic DEX/LUK-increasing equipment):

    Step 1: Calculate Damage Range
    Sin w/ Maple Kandayo (Weapon Att: 26 + 10 Att from 60% scrolls 5 times out of 7 = 36 and Att + 27 Level 10 Illbis)

    Lucky Seven/Triple Throw (Special Damage Range from Skill)
    MAX = (290 * 5.0) * 63 ATT / 100 => 913.5
    MIN = (290 * 2.5) * 63 ATT / 100 => 456.75

    Gunslingers w/ Maple Storm Pistol (Weapon Att: 49 Att + 10 Att from 60% scrolls 5 times out of 7 = 59 Att + 14 Att Level 50 Mighty Bullet)

    Regular Damage Range
    MAX = (Primary Stat + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100 => 765.04
    MIN = (Primary Stat * 0.9 * Mastery + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100 =>(1044 * 0.9 * 0.6 + 4) * 73 / 100 = 414.46

    Gun Stats
    Primary: DEX * 3.6 => 1044
    Secondary: STR => 4

    For hypothetical measures, let's say we were using +20 Level 110 Eternal Bullets (therefore 59 Att wpn+ 20 Att Bullets = 79 att):

    MAX = 1048 * 79 / 100 = 827.92
    MIN = (1048 * 0.9 * 0.6) * 79 / 100 = 447.08

    This is why I said it's not game breaking. The scaling sucks for Guns.

    *compare the "Primary Stat" from Guns (1044), and LUK calculation from Double Seven (LUK * 5.0 = 290 * 5 = 1,450).

    Step 2: N/A (Calculate Modifiers)

    Step 3: Calculate Monster Defense (Assuming Master Chronos)

    Weapon Defense - credit to AGF/Stereo:
    MAX damage = (913.5) * (1 - 0.01*0) - 170 WDEF*.5 => 828.5
    MIN damage = (456.75) * (1 - 0.01*0) - 170 WDEF*.6 => 354.75
    where D is (monster level - player level) if (monster level) > (player level), and 0 otherwise.

    MAX damage = (765.04) * (1 - 0.01*0) - 170 WDEF*.5 => 680.04
    MIN damage = (414.46) * (1 - 0.01*0) - 170 WDEF*.6 => 312.46

    Theoretical Eternal Bullet Gunslinger:
    MAX damage = (827.92) * (1 - 0.01*0) - 170 WDEF*.5 => 742.92
    MIN damage = (447.08) * (1 - 0.01*0) - 170 WDEF*.6 => 345.08

    Step 4: Damage Multipliers from Skills
    Lucky Seven is 150% at Max.
    MAX damage = 828.5 * 1.5 => 1,242.75
    MIN damage = 354.75 * 1.5 => 532.13

    Double Shot is 130% at Max
    MAX damage = 680.04 * 1.3 => 884.05
    MIN damage = 312.46 * 1.3 => 406.2

    Theoretical Eternal Bullet Double Shot:
    MAX damage = 742.92 * 1.3 = 965.8
    MIN damage = 345.08 * 1.3 = 448.6

    * note: Double Shot was originally 110% at Max, thanks to the MapleLegends buff.

    Step 5, 6, 7: Critical Damage

    MAX damage = 1,242.75 * 2 = 2,485.5 (same as adding +100%)
    MIN damage = 532.13 * 2 = 1,064.26

    *note: Though, there's a 50% activation rate; no crit, one crit, or both hits crit in Lucky Seven. I'm not going to bother calculating DPM here with the 50% in mind, because bosses... aren't really a big deal or challenge sub-120, safe for the LPQ/EPQ bosses. Either way, the damage difference is problematic (you'll see why later).

    Gunslingers: None, lul
    MAX damage = 884.05 (same)
    MIN damage = 406.2 (same)

    Theoretical Eternal Bullet Gunslinger:
    MAX damage = 965.8 (same)
    MIN damage = 448.6 (same)

    Step 8: N/A (After-Multipliers)

    Step 9: Damage Speed

    Here's where we need to get more practical in our analysis, rather than simply saying "but, Guns are faster!".

    Attack Speed: Faster (3) for Maple Kandayo + Claw Booster (+2)
    Faster (2): 600ms (-210ms) <= This one, for Lucky Seven.
    Faster (3): 660ms (-150ms)

    * Note, Faster(2) is the fastest possible, so there's no tier above it.

    Attack Speed: Fast (5) for Maple Storm Pistol + Gun Booster (+2)
    Faster (3): 390ms (-90ms) <= This one, for Double Shot.
    Fast (4): 420ms (-60ms)
    Fast (5): 450ms (-30ms)

    Assuming the parentheses are the idle casting time, then:

    600ms + 210ms => 810ms
    390ms + 90ms => 480ms

    The difference isn't actually 2x faster-- it's only about 160% faster.

    Though, this doesn't really matter in the whole grinding context.

    It's easier to measure it in terms of "how many shots do I need to kill".

    For example, Sins often have enough power to one-shot the enemy. This is also not even including Coke Zero pills, which, as we discovered, Sins have a bigger power curve.

    ❗Double Shot often leaves enemies needing to be 2-3 shotted, sometimes even four, to kill one enemy. That makes it difficult to reposition yourself, even with Recoil Shot.

    What's especially sobering is that... we're actually supposed to be using Invisible Shot to grind (which isn't buffed either damage-wise), so our grinding speed is based on Invisible Shot:

    Invisible Shot (max, +170% damage, 3 targets)
    Faster (3): 660ms (-150ms) <= This one, +2 casting speed from Booster.
    Fast (4): 720ms (-90ms)
    Fast (5): 750ms (-60ms)

    According to Neckson's subpar planning, this was meant to be used alongside Blank Shot, which stuns at a 100% rate (but... we don't get any crit boost, lul)

    Again, the problem with this is that, it's... weaker, same speed, targets less, and requires more skills to use effectively than Arrow Bomb, because of Archer's Critical Shot:

    Assuming an Archer is using a Maple Bow / Soul Searcher (Fast (5))
    Faster (3): 660ms (-150ms) <= This one, +2 casting speed.
    Fast (4): 720ms (-90ms)
    Fast (5): 750ms (-60ms)

    Arrow Bomb (6 targets):
    at max: MP -28, stunner 60%, damage 130%.

    Not even calculating the Critical Power boost here and the fact that Bows are also, higher attack than both Corsairs & Sins (Maple Soul Searcher, 63 att clean + 5 att from diamond bows), as I'm sure you can already see the bigger picture here...

    Anyways, removing the Bullet Level Restriction is solving one problem that Gunslingers and Outlaws have. Buffing the skills is a whoole bigger challenge that this suggestion doesn't fully resolve.
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  8. Nise

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    Jul 5, 2017
    2:59 PM
    Really love the calculations and analysis you did! Saves me the time from doing it :p But here's some things I think need to be corrected:

    So crit damage here should actually be calculated in the previous step. Maple considers crit additive so what ends up happening is:

    Lucky Seven is 150% at Max.
    MAX damage = 828.5 * 1.5 => 1,242.75
    MIN damage = 354.75 * 1.5 => 532.13

    Lucky Seven with Crit.
    MAX damage = 828.5 * (1.5 + 1) => 2,071.25
    MIN damage = 354.75 * (1.5 + 1) => 886.875

    And I'll do the 50% activation math for you while I'm at it :p

    Lucky Seven Avg Crit & No Crit
    MAX damage = (1,242.75 + 2071.25) / 2 = 1,657
    MIN damage = (532.13 + 886.875) / 2 = 709.5025

    The parenthesis aren't idle cast time, it's just how it compares to Normal (6). So the accurate comparison would actually be 600 ms vs 390 ms, which is 153.84% faster. Quite similar to the number you had at 160% but just slightly off.
  9. OP

    Siegfried Master Chronos

    Apr 21, 2017
    10:59 PM
    Thanks for providing the corrections Nise :)

    I think we've pretty much established these key points from our discoveries:
    • ✅ Change has no negative effect on class balancing on all levels of play (1/2/3/4 job VS sins)
    • ✅ Change will help increase damage consistency / decrease shots needed to kill (like Bishop's 1 vs 2 hit kills while grinding)
    And these key points regarding Gunslingers:
    • ❗Guns, despite being speed-oriented (i.e. Double Shot), have speed inconsistencies (mobbing skills have the same speed as Archers)
    • ❗Gunslingers have useless skills (Blank Shot, Grenade), because they imitate other classes without respecting their class advantage (speed casting).
    This is definitely worthy of another thread suggestion, but it does help point out that having those speed inconsistencies looked at, alongside the new damage buff, would help guide the Gunslinger / Outlaw rework.

    Food for thought: Invisible Shot & Blank Shot could have faster speeds to synergise with each other (and improved target count 3 -> 6) (rather than buffing raw damage because it doesn't really solve the core class issues WITH Gunslingers - excluding Outlaws), just like how Brawlers play, and Grenade could apply a Poison DOT effect on Mobs (bosses excluded) to help with damage consistency (as Gunslingers have to deal with the Gun Mastery limitation) when killing a group of enemies. Allowing you to do this:

    Blank Shot -> Grenade DOT -> Recoil (reposition) -> Invisible Shot and finish off group of enemies. ​

    Basically, Gunslingers finally become the actual ranged counterpart to Brawlers.

    That said, I don't have anything else to add here at the moment. If anyone has a counter-argument/disagreement, please post :)
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. Snork

    Snork Capt. Latanica

    Feb 19, 2018
    7:59 AM
    Why don't we add level restrictions on throwing stars instead? devilmush
    • Creative Creative x 1
  11. xRuru

    xRuru Slime

    Nov 2, 2020
    1:59 AM
    Blank shot isn’t useless, it just doesn’t use gun mastery for damage calculations. To my knowledge there aren’t many stun immune enemies in the game, so unlike ice splitter as an Outlaw, which won’t work on freeze immune mobs, you can still disable enemies for a short duration without the minimum range requirement of something like bomb arrow.

    The problem with a DOT effect being added to an already subpar skill like grenade is how long DOT takes to tick, and how it wouldn’t mesh well with the rest of the gunslingers kit. Look at Flamethrower for example. It has DOT as a secondary effect for the attack, but it’s essentially useless since it takes too long to apply a meaningful amount of damage, while simultaneously not doing enough as is. The problem with grenade is the fact that you can’t do anything while charging it and it’s damage is laughable at best. A better change to grenade would be to allow the grenade throw to be charged while performing other actions (if possible). It’s the same reason why piercing arrow on marksman and Big Bang on mages are meme skills. If not possible it could be made into a pseudo Final Attack that did splash damage when ever it activated. But considering FA is already unpopular because of the animation activating and wasting time I don’t think that’s a good option either.

    I don’t think gunslingers are necessarily trying to be a ranged counterpart to brawlers, and if they are I think they already have a lot of comparable tools in their tool box with wings and recoil shot. Instead of controlling the position of mobs they control the position of themselves. And if they needed more I don’t think buffing a sub par attack skill is what a gunslinger, and eventually Corsair, would want. If something were to be added it would probably be a passive of some kind. Crit chance, like you mentioned above, or maybe avoid, move speed or jump, or ideally some kind of survivability. That would ultimately be the biggest item to put on that list. Bullseye is nice, but it’s not extra hp, shifter, puppet or dark sight that’s for sure.

    As far as other changes I’d like on a gunslinger/outlaw rework wish list, make Gavoita a regular summon like silver hawk or golden eagle. It has a 5 second cooldown which makes trying to cast it between attacks more tedious than it needs to be. As it currently stands a Corsair only has booster and maybe MW as active buffs they need to maintain. I don’t think making gavoita last 3 minutes, while attacking at a 5 second delay, will do anything other than make the skill more useable.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2023
  12. Doguu

    Doguu Pink Teddy

    Oct 26, 2017
    1:59 AM
    I/L Wizard
    I think the community should really stop setting the bar for *necessary* changes at the highest DPS class in the game. You're asking like 4 item changes for the sake of maybe 10att. It's not even a buff for new players if they don't catch word about bottom of the barrel server changes either. I'm partying with a new friend on gunslinger right now and his DPS is fine with unfunded gear (not outstanding but far from unplayable and he even upgraded some wrong things). Honestly ilbi's can be a slap in the face to new players too if they buy them and can't afford to recharge them, that ends up costing millions and I've seen ppl say they'd rather have steelies for 1000 stacks. If anything I'd add a new bullet like a lvl10 +15att maple bullet or something instead of changing the rest of the item progression to not make sense but by no means is any change necessary.

    I like the idea of reworking unusable things but asking for flat dmg boosts makes the server stray from old maple's difficulty ppl here enjoy more than the newer iterations.

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