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The HP Buff Item in depth

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Pixel, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. Aligatour
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    Aligatour Slime

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    5:40 PM
    Aligatour
    Not the same but can't stop you from thinking that way
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    Stick to the main idea of the post and stop giving another suggestions on how donor NX will buy your way out to get more hp instead of vote.
    If you think you have a good suggestion go ahead and open a new thread for it
    But don't ruin this one.
    Anyway I said it before and I'll say it again
    The main idea of vote nx buff thingy that will give you a straight boost of hp will be a good thing and I really support it .
    I think it's creative, smart and not ruin the washers players effort.
    Surely it should give less than a regular ap reset but the idea is very good.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. OP
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    Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    This thread also brings points
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/do-nls-need-to-hp-wash.32267/

    especially i love when people say more HP would make DKs out of meta
    One pro of more HP is also to make DKs don't need to HB the attackers
    ''But that's their job''

    DKs are facing the boss, pinning it down, it's stressful for DKs to just be that crucial to keeping players HB'd
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/do-nls-need-to-hp-wash.32267/#post-219950

    Or this one

    I didn't make these people out, these are experiences , DKs want to focus on DPS keep their HB instantly for their Berserk, rather than walk back and give HB i know it's an important job but the overreliance on it is absurd

    is like if you said ''If there's no HS you get 0 exp while grinding''


    I love everyone arguing about
    Yeah barely surviving the 1 shot is ok if you got skill just dont afk lol
    when it goes further, yes you can do PB with 10k HP +HB if you're skill
    Yes you can do HT with minimum HP
    But HT won't take you , PB yes is the true test of skill and i won't argue with that , but there's many people who agree that we are putting too much pressure on both attackers and HB

    Not everything will be solved with HB
    especially in a private server
    no one should need an HB mule or find a rare DK partner.
    In bosses like PB yes is important to be a team
    on HT and Zak, i think there should be more flexibility ,i've seen DKs do amazing damage but also feels stressful to be the HB mule for the buyers
     
  4. Aurum
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    Aurum King Slime

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    5:40 PM
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    Very creative and interesting! An excellent way that avoids us from cheating the system (HP washing is, ultimately, a loop hole in the system now exploited by the majority of long term players -- the same thing goes for leeching!) and for directly getting what players generally want in order to boss effectively (more HP). It might require some testing on the GM's part, but, tinkering with the supply/demand/cost of Vote NX is also an excellent idea so that players are not given unlimited blessings and it promotes a form of delay gratification that encourages both long term playing and more player enjoyment.
    It will also allow maining mages (such as myself) much much more easier, as you say because INT scrolls and gear ideally would no longer cost a fortune.
    It will also encourage more job diversity (e.g., we might now see more bowmen type jobs since they are generally really hard to wash unless you're a funded long time player).
    An extension to this could also be an analogous MP Blessing for those Arch Mages/Bishops who want to leech and be more cost effective with their potions.
    I completely endorse trying this! Of course, there's a possibility it might not work, but its worth a try! It would also make ML stand-out as one-of-a-kind because we might actually be able to be true to our word when they say "HP washing not required", which is a statement of major debate on this forum.
    Excellent and creative suggestion!

    For those of you who argue about how it would cause issues to the economy for INT gear, INT gear for a loop hole purpose should not be a hot commodity anyways -- its meant solely for magicians and magicians only, period. If implemented, there will definitely be a period of economic fluctuation, but I'd imagine the supply/demand and overall economy will level itself to a stable equilibrium that will, in the end, benefit the more disadvantaged players such as those just starting off on this server.

    With respect to angering those already wealthy or at the top by playing the game as it is right now. I lend my argument to those who said that previous nerfs have been implemented with no major damages to the server. The server also operates heavily on a capitalist system (i.e., the richest people at the top can just only get richer and excel faster in the game by the nature of their OP characters, equips, and wealth), making it sometimes extremely hard and time consuming for newer players to establish a base on this server. Im not saying im completely anti-capitalist (i.e., marxist), but, in the long run, I thinks it does no good for the population growth of this server if we keep only benefiting the richest people on here. They can take the hit with such nerfs (I'm not saying completely eradicate leech and HP washing all at once, but perhaps in phases). Besides, I'd imagine such characters have already reached end game -- honestly what more do you guys want?

    With respect to leeching, with the way the server is right now, it's very tempting to leech. There's a reason why its mainstream right now, at lvl 65 and beyond, its the most efficient effective way to level unless you're OP at mobbing or finishing PQs fast (which is rare itself). No wonder there's never no one ever at OPQ, LMPQ, PPQ, MPQ etc -- they're all AFK getting leech! So ridiculous imo! It's really frustrating trying to find a party in those PQs as it is. Like, if this is gonna continue to be the case, why not just completely eradicate those PQs then (sorry getting a little flustered here xD). And the fact that you pay money for someone to play the game for you is appalling in the eyes of some.

    Essentially, I see fundamental problems with HP washing and leeching in general. It should be eradicated because it promotes very selfish motives (esp. leeching) that contradicts what I believe is the true goal of this server (a social and welcoming server with a tight-knit community).

    GMS and other nostalgic servers never fully exploited this HP washing system as we are now anyways (and yes, you could say that its because they had a larger server community, but all the more reason to get rid of this system!)

    I know I went a little off topic and I'm going to get a lot of backlash for this but this is my opinion, whether some of you like it or not.
     
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  5. Xeph
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    Xeph Horny Mushroom

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    Hi OP (and any new player out there thinking about HP washing):

    This post is by no means insulting any individual. In fact, apart from the original post by Pixel, I've yet to read any other comments (because I am too lazy to read the same thing over again and again for years), so I apologize to anyone who feels attacked by me after reading this post.

    As a player on this server since 2017, and have washed multiple range characters to varying degree, I like your idea. However, I am very confident nothing will be done about it because:
    1. 10000000000 posts have been made about HP washing, but yet nothing has been done.
    2. Players who claim 'Hp WaShInG iS oPtIoNaL' all HP-washed, yet when a topic about HP washing comes up, they straight away go 'Oh, you don't have to HP wash to do <insert boss 1> or <insert boss 2> (you know who you are, its always the same old names XD)
    3. It's obvious that maintaining server vote over anything is of utmost importance to the server, and the only way to do so is via AP-Resets. Therefore, HP washing will never go away (it's simple logic).

    If solutions provided do not affect this point, then the next counter-argument is always 'You will invalidate the efforts of all old players!!! / You make things too easy for new players that is unfair to old players, WE suffered it, so should YOU!!!' (you guys just write it in a sophisticated manner).
    But then, who would someone suggest a solution that is harder to carry out as compared to the current system? Hmm...
    Also, to show you how dumb this way of argument sounds:
    In the past, we HP washed hard, so you guys should HP wash instead of coming up with a (new and better solution).
    In the past, we communicate using pen and letters, so you guys should write letters instead of using handphones to send messages.
    In the past, we travel to different countries by boat, so you guys travel by boats instead of airplanes
    In the past, we had slavery, so you guys should have slavery too instead of achieving equality between the different groups.
    In the past, we were poor, so you guys should be living in poverty too, instead of improving on SOL.
    Sounds dumb right? I've highlighted the similar parts if you still cant see it.

    4. Every high-level bossing player will know that only the Monster-book ring, Ellin ring, and pet HP scrolls are viable sources of HP if you are considering end-game bosses since all other HP gears are either seasonal-lock (which means you never know when you will get them, when they will expire, and the amount of HP that comes with it - see recent events where all items are of varying HP gains), or come at a cost of your damage (see MON for classes like Bowmaster, BFC in replacement of PGC). This effectively shuts them out from people who wants to do end-game bosses SERIOUSLY. Yet, whenever a topic on HP washing comes up, the whole world goes 'there are so many sources of HP.... you new players are just lazy, stop bitching and earn them'. (and its ironic how everyone claims the 1k HP from monster book ring is OP when you can't even survive ONE shot from bosses WITHOUT HP washing and WITH the tier 10 ring. Ignoring pink bean, just look at horntail???? (Am I the only one thinking that it is insufficient for range classes, or am I the weird dude here? Or is my definition of Over-Powered different from that of yours? Meanwhile accuracy issue for Warriors/Bucc gets ignored as always)
    5. Majority of (veteran) players agree HP washing is a flawed mechanic, but when a new player suggests a 'better' system, everyone goes 'OH, our efforts are wasted, (so the current HP washing system must stay)' (Ironic, isn't it?)
    6. Lastly, there are a few individuals who truly like the HP washing system because of the challenge it provides, and I give it to those people who belong to this category.

    Having said that, here is why you don't have to worry about hitting 19k (or insert any other HP range you are aiming for):
    1. Even people who have made a mage as their first class, the MAJORITY barely reach 155, 163, or even more-so the topic of discussion - 185 within 1-2 years (I am guilty of this too... rip). I've seen a few (<20 in my 4 years of playing), but they are really the exceptions....
    2. This is even more unrealistic for those 'I don't want to leech my character, I don't enjoy playing a mage' (LOL... try grinding on NL past 130 first perhaps?). The only person I've seen so far successfully going beyond 185 is getSmoked (for range classes)?
    3. Even if you do eventually hit these levels, you will eventually realized that HP washing is the least of your concern, IF you had planned it out well since the beginning. Every end-game players knows that other problems are far more damaging 1.The horrible state of the economy where leech and scroll prices have dropped tremendously, negative meso-making from bosses, and yet cs/ws prices are soaring. 2. The burnout you get leeching past 130 due to repeated content.... the list can go on.... (I would rather wash 2 30k range characters anytime over trying to scroll a perfect weapon that is probably needed for PB anyway). And the reason why no one post about them is simply because only veteran (or players who bother to invest time into the game) knows about it, and simply know making forum posts is the most useless shit you can do.
    4. If you truly want to know how much HP you need to survive a certain boss, the best way isn't to ask on forums or discord, because a heck ton of wrong information gets provided. Just visit the twitch streaming section, and see a live stream of <insert boss here> run. (lmao, new players actually educating me that 5.6k HP is the minimum requirement for a bishop at HT. Then how did demure clear it in early-2017, when even the monster book ring did not exists? XD)
    5. People who truly make it to 'these bosses' are those who channel their energy into planning their characters, and making do with the system, because they know nothings get done. By the time 'HP washing is fixed', these people could have probably HP wash 2-3 characters PB-ready while those on forum continues...
    6. No one says you have to completely washed out all INT to start playing the game... Neither do you have to hit 19k HP before you start your very first Zak run... Take baby steps by achieving a certain HP goal by a certain time period...
    7. The next time you consider trying to change the HP washing system, please suggest to change the damaged dealt by the new bosses. It's 1. easier to code, 2. does not affect any other parts of the game, 3. give (old) players new content to debate, and thus 4, provide new and fresh drama to read, and 5. a win-win situation for these 'we HP-washed hard, so should you' players, and 6. easier to write about instead of going about paragraphs.
    8. You will soon realized that having a mage class comes with a lot more benefits other than just leeching your HP-washed characters... Having to leech a HP-wash class is just the front problem of everything that a mage class addresses. With a mage, you can farm meso faster, do (pre)-quest faster, having flexibility in your bossing roles, switch characters when you get bored of one (Don't lie, no one who plays maple for a long time sticks to only playing one character), and the list goes on. These may seem small, but they all add up eventually. It's pretty much all about efficiency in this time and age where no one has the time to play all day.
    9. I'll save the best for the last. Most people eventually quit even before 185 due to IRL commitments, burn-out, friends quitting/getting ban, so these HP washing posts/solutions don't really matter anyway...

    Some food-for-thought: Has anyone ever played a game where Developers work hard on a new content, only to lock players out of it intentionally (except behind a pay wall)? MapleLegends (or any 0.62 private server with HP washing) is indeed one-of-a-kind. KEK

    Edit: Added additional details

    Cheers to everyone, peace :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
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  6. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I think there are other issues to people not reaching 155 such as:
    1. The game is super front loaded, all the real content is in the first 100 levels or so. Most classes reach their max skill levels by 140 for the important skills rest are probably barely used.
    2. The leveling exp curve gets steeper at higher level, which is normal, but the lack of meaningful content makes it hard to swallow. It is great for a small minority, such as the pb groups that are able to sell the pb only drops and progress their gear through it. While most players gets tired grinding mesos for small improvement and the gameplay gets too stale.
    3. Circling back to point 1: currently only way to play NL BM is by leeching to 140 (unless you love to grind with the huge handicap of 150int). Which means they skipped over majority of the content, they skipped over all the skills they slowly improve on and built no bond with the character. As anime as it sounds, a lot of people here are due to nostalgia and you don’t reminiscent about hanging on a rope. You remember how you killed that first werewolf 10 years ago.
    so yeah people are not getting to the level they are washing for, but the counter argument is they are not getting there because current gameplay is much more grindy and they weren’t prepared for it.

    a lot of us from old days remember getting 10% an hour at coolies were the highest exp you get at 5x, so we are prepared for the harder grind. While you throw someone that leeched to 150 while they sleep in real life and suddenly want the to spend 10 hours grinding to the next level?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  7. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    And here is the super controversial point that everyone will click disagree with (so do it to this and not get it mixed with above)

    I wish there is a non-pay2win and non-vote2win private server that’s up to date with GMS.
    The pros I want to see are:
    1. Boss design: mobile interactive bosses that you can’t simply clear with gear but actually have to practice mechanic to dodge their 1 shot KOs. Yes they added a ton of mobility, but you need those if you want to dodge mobile boss attacks.
    2. Progression of your character every step of the way. You are getting meaningful boosts to your skills every couple of levels at high levels, instead of no more real boost in leveling past 150 when all your main skills are maxed.
    3. Content are continuously introduced so people don’t get bored of killing the same boss for 2 years.
    Obviously their cons are:
    1. Pay2win out of the nose
    2. Grindy progression in reboot that requires a farmer class while the chance of improving gear is low (something like 40% to progress a gear level, if it fails it drops 1 level while also might reset to a very low level at small chance)
    I play ML because I tried other private servers and their staff don’t care about their game as much as here. We don’t get our perfect game and everyone wants different things. So yeah I am just listing what I want from my own opinion. Which is a nostalgic experience where I can relive my childhood experience of leveling a NL BM by killing monsters and do content while don’t have to think that if I do that I’ll have to remake down the line to be viable for late game.
     
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  8. Shabtai
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    Shabtai Red Snail

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    I love the part said above about players don't bond with their chars due to extensive leeching.. I felt the same with my attacker. It was heartbreaking not play it through all the joy and friends from lv10 to 100..

    Imo hp washing is so cool cuz we can put work and planning to get more HP. That being said, I can't stand the timewall.

    Also, it's really hard to go from leeching to grinding due to efficiency. I'm seeing my friends at lvls 140+ and it doesn't seem they will go much further. I myself don't think I'll get past 155 cuz there will be no progress and to my eyes the economy for endgame is ridiculous and too time consuming.

    It's all about fun. Destroy that wich is anti-fun. No excuses. Haha
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    High INT makes grinding slower, so people buy leech/self-leech to speed up and skip the "first 100 levels with all the content". Speeding up makes users hit their NX wall halting their progress. Sounds like the problems lie with time-gating of nx for current hp meta (which initiatives are being experimented with), and the prevalance of leech and perception that new characters MUST leech. 150 base INT is far from unplayable, especially when you have to pace yourself. My fondest experiences were card hunting with 2k barrage lines @120 with 400 base_int on my first character. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
     
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  10. OP
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    Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    ''Guys i did awful damage for my level if i am not complaining neither should you''

    Because 2k lines with strafe with the base int you said ,means that's a 2k on rare occassions with a crit.
    i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt
    that you had a 100 att kandiva cuz you can't wear bows above level 70 with 200 base dex,
    you had a 10 att wg
    at least 50 dex from equips
    and were on ciders
    that all gives you a range of xxx-1200

    so yeah with strafe 110% and crit you should be rarely be hitting 2ks and not count SEs and st uff
    but that's miserable, and people want to enjoy the game
    and doing poop damage at 120 is not having fun

    It may not be a race but also putting a miserable life as an strawman is not a good example
    Just because you had fun doesn't mean that's good enough for everyone, that's not how the game should be played
     
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  11. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    What Buccaneer uses Strafe?
     
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  12. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    He's talking about barrage though?
     
  13. OP
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    Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    oh wait is it barrage a skill
    I've had people use alternate names (like original KMS names) i thought barrage was like an mistranslated name for Strafe , idk

    Mb i apologize for assuming orz
     
  14. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    The point of it is that while leech is the "efficient" path, without an NX supply to sustain the growth, its pointless to do so. And with the current landscape where everyone has some base int, everyone understands the "lack of damage" and its basically ingrained into the game. The changes to that are to improve NX allowance (being experimented with), or tackle the ease of ultimate-leech once and for all. Both are pretty huge undertakings though, with lots of ramifcations on the server.
     
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  15. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Same reply as below

    I don't really care if the "fairness" is there I just don't want what I've done so far be discontinued to where I would have to restart my character. (Level 121 Night Lord, AP Reset 1,770,100 NX)

    As long as I'm still able to wash out myself with the current method while the others can gain HP equally as effective with a different method being this one or something else.

    Leaving Kiln's post below.

    Yeah, but if you double washed with the current method you'd be able to have some damage - its small but it helps a bit.
     
  16. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Kiln that would break the "No Pay2Win" advertisement
     
  17. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    uhh its a sarcastic remark to the guy tryin to say spending donation NX on HP Buff is not p2w
     
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  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I managed to get a tier10 ring in under a month and finished all of the NT prequests (for 3 characters) using my lvl 140, 220 base int shad. It's not impossible. It'll be slower than normal, sure, but it's totally manageable.
    It gets much faster when you get to 4th job and start growing your main stat instead of having bloodwashed mp or hp.
     
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  19. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    That helps a ton, especially given the facy I'm starting to farm cards now
     
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  20. Talos
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    Talos Blue Snail

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    its possible to make it lv req like 120+ for these hp buffs, if you're not gonna wash you gonna suffer a bit until 120 and save up on vote cash
    and those who does decide to wash could get all the hp needed to get by on early-mid game bosses.
    that will balance it out for those who don't wash to "punish" them a little bit for not washing + people who wash will have around the same hp
    at 120 like someone at lv 120 who used all his hp buffs w/o using it yet. still more rewarding to wash and it doesn't make people who didn't wash to not experience end game content.
     
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