Do NL's NEED to HP wash?

There are many guides in the guides section that provide new players with all the info one could need, as well as a HP washing calculator.

I believe this one answers most of your questions;
https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/what-it-means-for-hp-washing-to-be-optional-on-maplelegends.26370/

As for the fun in leeching a thief with a bunch of int to 135, thats a very different topic. It eventually all comes down to which sacrifices you are willing to make in order to have certain amounts of HP at 160+. Thats a question you need to answer for yourself unfortunately :c.

 

Partying with Nightlord on grinding is somewhat charity, the most possible squad I could think of is
"NightLord -- F/P mage -- Bishop" for grinding

 

I personally remade my old NL because of that. When i started to play ML back in early 2017, I didn't know a lot about hp washing and I wanted to have a great time playing my favorite pre-bb class.
But when I hit 155 and wanted to do Hortail, it was a pain to find a party that will get me because i was barely able to survive with HB.
So i took the decision to make a bishop and leech my intlord to 155.

So if your goal is to do Horntail and eventually be recruited in a 6man run when you hit 175-180+, Hp washing is mandatory.

 

HT in ML is slightly buffed, so you definitely need more than 5.6k HP if you were to survive that boss w/o HB if it were powered up (aka when wings are active). Not every Bishop is competent enough to know how to use dispel to remove powered up in every run, so sometimes you have to deal with that.

On the topic of HB, HB is a luxury IMO. There are many DrKs out there who are equally incompetent and will not know when to buff on time, requiring you to beg for party buffs. Relying on party buffs is aids enough, especially when you are a NL that already requires SE if not your damage is total crap.

This isn't 2008 GMS, where you run 18 man HT for funsies and every party buff/almost unlimited ress is available. Wheel of Fortunes, unfortunately, do not exist in this server either. The more endgame players would normally do 6 man or less runs and sometimes would not even have a DrK.

Having enough HP to survive 2 hits in HT compared to being slightly above the threshold for 1 hit will make your HT experience much better. The difference is night and day. Moreover, if you do no washing, you would probably need to get to around 180 to even have sufficient HP (with MB and whatnot), whereas your washed counterparts can start at 160. At this point, you might as well remake from 1-160, since it's gonna be much faster than 160-180 w/o HT.

Lastly, having to rely on HB also means if your DrK dies w/o ress or d/c, the run is pretty much over for you, meaning you either die alongside them or ditch the run.

 

This.

You could do like me and grind you NL with 120 int, by hunting monstercards. I havr 100 base int i added from lvl 1-22, and 20 int from equips. When you get lvl 155 you will have 8,1k HP with HP equips such as monsterring and others. Enough to take a horntail hit without HB.
My character still feels decently powerfull to have a good time, dexless is op. And so far i have not spend much at all.

 

Mandatory. Just find a good DK, pay attention, and stop relying on shifter.

Herd mentality. Thank you for actually stopping to think about whether or not HP washing is necessary for your style of gameplay. Yes, HP washing does provide you some luxury (depending on how much you wash), but by no means is it mandatory. If your goal is to leech until 135 or 155 and hold triple throw for 1-2 hours in HT, then by all means wash to your hearts content.

You can still participate in all content, except for Toad and maybe PB (no one knows for sure yet until its released), with little to no-washing at all. It'll give you the nostalgic feeling you're looking for and make DKs relevant again.

 

not enough good dk in this server. HB is a luxury in good HT squad. She will probably find out by herself anyways if she ever make to 155.

 

some scenarios to think about:
1. DK dc's -> you die
2. res isn't available and DK dies -> you die
3. dispel happens and

a. DK isn't beside you -> you die on hit
b. DK doesn't react fast enough and doesn't HB -> you die on hit
c. mass sed happens -> you die (unless you can manage to avoid all attacks for 15 seconds)
​

 

According to akash's post and chew's hp calculator, an unwashed player should get 3,936 and 3,853 hp at level 155, respectively. With the current HP equips in game, a player can get:

300 hp from MoN
300 hp from BFC
200 hp from event rings (100 each ring)
100 hp from event glasses
1000 hp from tier 10 ring
300 hp from 3 pets
100 Hp from ellin ring
Total of 2,300 hp from non-essential equipments.
*OP did not that she just started the game, so the event items can be ignored, (lets say 2,000 hp total); however, I would assume staff will offer similar items in upcoming events.

Including event items, thats 6,152 or 6,236 hp without washing (i believe thats enough hp to survive without HB once legs/tail goes down, correct me if i'm wrong.) So, you'll really need HB only for legs and tail. Even then, you can avoid leg/tail damage by staying top left. Again, correct me if i'm wrong.

are we ignoring holy shield, bishop healing you, and hero's will?

 

Hard to find DKs when we are all just pepegas who meme the class. If you are a good DK you get hoarded by 1-2 squads who probably don't even need you but just want the convenience of HB so they can tank more hits before potting.

The thing is, washing culture does have an effect on people's willingness to make DKs, and because of that it's more challenging to find a DK for any sort of content. Over the years they went from a hard set requirement for a lot of content, to a utility for pot saving. A lot of squads can run without HB, which gets rid of much of the incentive to making a DK in the first place, which in turn makes it more challenging for the folks who chose not to wash to have the HP required for some content. In that way washing culture does actively make the game harder for those that don't wash, which sort of just compounds the issue further.

People saying you have to wash excessively are clowns though. The vast majority of players don't even make it to HT(Which can probably be done without washing) and it's hard to say if anyone outside of the top echelons of players have any right to even attempt Pink Bean for whenever that comes out.

It's not necessary to wash nearly as much as people say you need to. If you don't like washing it's fine, there's a lot of equips to grind for, but some of them are fairly inconvenient to get so it's a fairly stubborn route. Low base int mp washing is another route, and if a person does it right they'll be much better off than some of the folks with 200 int and have never heard of MP washing. It's not much of a malice to the character either, just 60-80 int can get you to around 10k HP if you're a chill sort who takes things slow and applies their AP correctly. Unless you want to hit like 16k+ HP and go beyond any reasonable limits there isn't any reason to go for 200+ int. You can easily make a good character with much less effort, NX, and leech, and anyone who says 200 int is needed to play the game is a clown.

 

If everyone plays properly then it's not really an issue. The problems happen when people make mistakes. Washing isn't a requirement to clear the boss, its a quality of life thing that makes it so you are not punished for other people making mistakes.

 

You need about 7200 (maybe more depending on defense) to survive buffed non-leg attacks.

 

The biggest theme of this thread is that there is a massive difference between barely being able to do a boss, and being able to do it comfortably without reliance on other people. I have played archer anywhere from 6k hp to 15k hp, and I have probably done more HT with low HP than anyone else. I won't tell you that its not possible to boss with low hp, you can often make up for your lack of HP with skill, but let me assure you that its going to be ALOT harder. There will also be some situations where you can't compensate lack of HP with skill. If you are truly okay with these disadvantages, then there is no problem with washing. But 99% of people are not willing to undertake these disadvantages, thus the standard advice is that HP washing is practically not optional.

A wing buffed magic attack from the heads can still kill you from that hp range, you will need roughly 7k minimum to reasonably do HT. Its also worth noting that some of these items are not best in slot. Most endgame players do not use BFC, as high attack pgc/pac are much easier to find and have the additional advantage of not being character locked. For archers/corsairs/shadowers/mages MoN is inferior to HTP.

 

- shield: i wasn't counting the cases where you don't actually get sed. true that bishop can shield but they can't shield every time
- bishop healing: bishop ain't gonna heal you until they will and mg and heal themselves. this is also dependent on the bishop surviving dp + sed. but true that you could survive this if you can tank a hit or two and the bishop survives and heals you
- hero's will: yeah true you can hero's will, provided you have over 3k mp and don't get mana drained

the dp + mass sed scenario is the least likely scenario i described, and has lots of different possible outcomes. so yes, that argument is weak but the others aren't.

 

That's true. I did not CS a BFC, because I wanted the ability to use my cape between my chars. Imo, I think it's safe to assume that most players do not have a 8+ att cape (maybe i'm wrong again given how low CS prices have been), so there's essentially a 3 att difference compared to a 5 att BFC (yes, its going to take some work to obtain, unless you're lucky). For many casual players, 3 att is pretty marginal and is worth the sacrifice for additional 300hp. I think the same concept can be applied when choosing whether to use a MoN or HTP. For the elitest, however, I understand the extra attack is worth scratching and clawing for.

Side note. Even though you'll probably sacrifice some DPM, isn't it possible to stay out of range of wing attacks as a NL/BM/Sair?

 

The thing is, nobody who values their time would ever bother reaching level 150+ on a totally unwashed BM/NL. Big waste of effort.

This x1000. A trend I've noticed is that new players will get so worked up about HP washing and "needing" 23k or whatever for PB, when only the top 0.1% of players will ever stand a chance of beating the Bean. Hell, the vast majority of players don't even make it to HT level, let alone end up running HT or any other boss seriously. not to disparage new players; understandable how it's hard to accept your character simply won't be able to complete all content in the game, even if you'll never reasonably reach such content. as if there weren't already enough ways to ruin your character in this game? thats the problem of hp washing.

 

If you mean the touch damage of the wing then yes, you can avoid it 100% of the time without any dpm loss. Some people will claim that the wing can hit you as you are climbing, but this can be avoided 100% of the time if you know animations and how to climb the ropes quickly. Just to clarify though, the ~7k damage isn't from the wing directly, it happens when the wing buffs the heads and the heads attack with a magic attack. The boosted head hits can only be avoided if the bishop constantly dispels the buff on the heads.

 

The reason why everyone will tell you to wash is because on ML, Horntail is THE endgame boss due to how lucrative (both money-wise and xp-wise) it is to fight, but having HB tends to be a luxury rather than a necessity for runs. The main reason is because on ML people fight HT in much smaller squads than they do on GMS, and there are multiple reasons why this is the case:

-In GMS, you have much larger servers confined to two channels for running HT. I have never actually ran HT in GMS, but if my Zak experiences are anything to go by, groups only get very few chances to run HT per unit time and thus want to bring more people for smoother runs. On ML, server population is much smaller and you can use all eight channels, meaning that organizing runs is a lot easier and more casual because you can just run whenever instead of having to negotiate with the rest of the server to get timeslots to run in, so most people will tend to want to bring in less people since the logistics involved with organizing more people becomes the biggest hurdle in hosting.
-Horntail is easier on ML because in here, holy shield will block seduce. Whereas on GMS people are loathe to touch arms in fear of mass sed, on ML cleavers will happily go wherever their damage is maximized with only minimal concern for mass seds, which means we can deal damage much more efficiently. In addition, gear quality on ML generally are better than they were on GMS (at least from my experience), so that helps too. Oh yeah in ML mages can spam ultimates freely without worrying about dcing people, so even bishops can be formidable damage dealers in HT.
-I don't think GMS players ever really gotten around to multi-client in HT (even though they technically could do so), mostly because they were running in big groups and don't really need the edge. On ML, players have came up with all sorts of schemes to multi-client in HT to make runs easier and less reliant on having specific classes, and even with the recent restriction it's possible to get around it by simply having two computers.

Because of all these, at high levels most people will (or at least strive to) participate in one party runs because one party is usually enough to clear HT with a decent time consistently, and smaller runs are both more lucrative and much easier to actually organize than bigger runs. With smaller headcount per group means that more groups will be running HT, and there are only so many HT-ready DrKs on ML to go around so a lot of groups will just want to get by without. Two party runs or one party runs with DrKs are still certainly present, but if you absolutely need HB to survive, your opportunity for running will be that much smaller.

So how much level would a ranged character need to do HT without HB? I would say that, at a minimum, you should have 7300 HP. While you can get around legs by simply being on the top when legs are still alive, you cannot get around magic-buffed full map attacks by the heads, and I've seen them do like 70xx to my archer with HTP, so if you're wearing a MoN (as most NLs would prefer to) you'll probably be taking even more damage there.

(Also, I'm just going to say that even if you do have HB, having enough base HP to survive wings buffed magic attacks is important because HT can dispel your HB, and if it does so while wings are still alive and DrKs aren't fast enough to HB you (or they die/disconnect)... well, you're kinda SoL then. Oh yeah, smaller groups also mean that there will be less res to go around, and since wheel doesn't exist on ML, your deaths will have a far bigger impact here than they would back on GMS.)

Looking at the unwashed HP charts on Akash's thread, you'll see that even at level 200 with BFC/t10/MoN/Ellin/300 HP from pet equips, you'll still be a few hundred HP short of 7300. Granted, you can get more HP from pet equips than 300 (up to 1050 is possible technically, though that is massively unrealistic unless you throw tends of billions on your HP equips). That said, I'm going to point out that those HP values are only useful if you're a purist who refuses to even touch an AP reset for anything HP related. For most people, when they say "I don't want to wash", what they're really thinking is "I don't want to deal with having base INT and all the troubles associated with it". You can still engage in HP washing just by having INT equips from your Zakum helm, deputy star, maybe buy a HTP when you reach 120, and buy or even borrow INT gears off buddies when you level. If you're only allergic to the idea of having temporarily-higher-than-4 base INT and not the idea of HP washing altogether, it's entirely possible to do some "budget" HP washing and come up with 7300 HP somewhere in your 170-180s. So even if you don't want to have any points in base INT, it's possible to meet the bare minimum HP required to do HT, even without HB, when your level is sufficiently high (exactly how high depends on how much INT you can borrow off your buddies).

That being said, having 7300 is really only the minimum requirement to run HT without HB - your character will be able to do it with that much HP, but they'll be doing it kicking and screaming. At 7300 HP not only will you not be able to help with legs and tail (tail does less damage than legs, but while I never really got an exact damage down I think buffed tail slams do more than 7300), but you risk getting OHKO'd if wings extend into you while it's under an attack buff (which is more likely than you'd think, since you can get slapped on the edge of the platforms while you hitting head, or on the right side you might get slapped while climbing the rope. You need something like 9200 HP to survive wing slap consistently (this should also give you enough HP to fight tail if legs is dead), and you need ~9800 HP to fight legs. 9800 is really the last important milestone to hit, in my opinion - having more HP lets you use pots efficiently but at that point it's much more of a luxury than a necessity, but to get to that much (or even 9200) you obviously need to do a fair bit of washing with at least some base INT involved.



Speaking of which, the amount of base INT you will need to get to 9.8k is actually not very large. Even with minimal INT gears involved, 120 base INT will get you there in a good time, and you can get by with less if you have better INT gears and/or engage in MP washing as well. Having 100 base INT or so will weaken your NL by a fair bit, but not to the degree where it's unplayable without leeching, and there are plenty of NLs/Archers who run around with a hundred or so base INT, so you don't really need to feel obliged to have a mage to leech your NL (although I would say that it's a pretty good idea still; NL is the shittiest class at grinding until they can do endgame bosses, and have a mage to leech your NL will reduce the pain considerably.)