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Nerf Demolition IED, Reduce Super Transform uptime, or list it as a MapleLegends feature

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Oct 15, 2023.

  1. soulreload
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    soulreload Horny Mushroom

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    While Pasta is really trying his best to figure out if a change is really needed and what should change, most people in this post giving opinion never played a bucc and doesnt even know the class game play or the impact that changes can do in end game content / in other classes gameplay (TL/SI nerf).

    Most people asking for nerfs because of an old player DPM on statues (not even a challenging boss for buccs mechanic wise like HT) but cant show why and how properly.

    Again, if you wanna nerf buccs dmg dont allow SI to be used with Booster. Dont mess up with other skills/combos.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. Hiyo
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    Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    I believe the whole buccaneer package is unique and irreplaceable so even if nerfs do happen the class will still be in high demand as they're the only class at the moment that can control Pink Bean (and Auf to an extent, bucc>warrior pin) smoothly. With that said I believe that buccaneers should either get hit in their damage or their utility. TL being what it is allows for certain strategies and mistakes to happen with little risk involved, if a nerf is to hit TL I do hope it is done in a way that promotes active gameplay, it can look like this:

    Time Leap reduces cooldowns of skills by 50% and attacking while in bubble reduces the cooldown of TL by X seconds every attack.

    Or you can touch on Super Transformation uptime or skill multipliers, which directly lower's their damage. I don't think nerfing any QoL aspect is good, things like their i-frames, avoid formula or their hitbox should remain untouched.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  3. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    currently, buccs are utility+dmg with no obvious weaknesses. their iframes make their low avoid kinda irrelevant but their iframes cant be recoded easily.
    Should buccs have both utility and dmg, given than NLs have alchemist nerfed?

    Disclaimer: i play bucc,nl and bm.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  4. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    i disagree, imagine needing 8 buccs for right bird first LOL
     
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  5. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Alchemist nerf? You mean when all the mid game NL's got a buff by getting 200% potions?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    great inference
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  7. soulreload
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    soulreload Horny Mushroom

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    This comment makes no sense, you start saying that buccaneer package is unique and irreplaceable and just uses that argument to ask for a damage nerf.

    Ok, so lets follow your logic and nerf the damage of every other class that provides good utility, just to make NL's/SAIR's stronger.

    You know what is going to happen? More SI/TL mules, decrease on active buccaneer players and even more NL's.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    Are we seriously having this discussion because bunch of NLs feel insecure about some other class is getting closer to their total DPM?
    how do i unwatch this
     
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  9. Hiyo
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    Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    Their kit is irreplaceable at endgame, you still need active buccs and a damage nerf isn't going to kill the class. Mules cannot replace what an active bucc can do. I am unsure why this is hard to understand. Pink bean runs are literally bucc-gated so even if a bucc does 1 damage, you are still wanted.

    As for my logic, all other classes that provide utility are in good spots, the only outlier is a buccaneer. I play a BM and I think we're in a really good spot overall. BMs do not need a damage buff. BM/MM are classes that are more likely to be muled at the endgame than a bucc btw.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  10. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    You're right, any suggestion relating to nerfing a class other than NL is automatically nonsense!
     
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  11. soulreload
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    soulreload Horny Mushroom

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    Ok so, in your logic, the reason why bucc needs a damage nerf is because "a damage nerf wont kill the class" and because their utility is very good.

    I really hope the balance team dont take this serious.

    We literally have just one dpm picture in this post, from a single person, in a single boss, with unknown gear, and in end game, and no one else is contributing with more data besides saying that "utility and damage is bad pls nerf".
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 3
  12. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    The gear isn't unknown actually, it's fairly perfected gear though. however the other dpms posted were done by the same player with the same gear and was arguably one of the most skilled BM players on the server at the time. It's laughable to see a bucc that is 10 levels down does more damage, has better surviveability and uses much less pots than a BM.

    Of course there's a lot more to go over than just one boss at a certain power level and early to mid game also shouldn't be forgotten but to go fully defensive as a bucc player yourself while not providing any reasonable data either. One should be receptive of other people their opinions instead of dismissive, even if you may not agree you can voice this in other ways than asking for Balance team to not take someone else their opinion seriously.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  13. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Tbf based on the skill changes list, not a single class has received any nerf other than NL. It must be an unusual experience.
     
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  14. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Mage ult nerf
    -drops
    Si no longer works on skills
    Dk roar nerf
    Bishop res nerf

    Sure, you are the sole victim of the BT hellbent on destroying NL's ability to invest even less into lucrative content. Does it take conscious effort to play a victim or does it come naturally?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2023
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  15. soulreload
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    soulreload Horny Mushroom

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    The whole staff already have a opinion on the matter, even those who dont play buccs, based on the dpm tests that skarmory did.

    Even if i tried to provide my own data, this would not change you guys opinion, since i am not high level enough, my gear is not decent enough and in the end people would just say its the player skill fault not being able to reach skarmory DPM.

    Thats why i am not even trying to convince anyone about anything on this matter anymore.

    With all my respect to skarmory and staff, if you gonna make decisions based on his data alone, because he has very good gear and is a skilled player, just do something about his ban and let him make decisions from now on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2023
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  16. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    My opinion on the matter is coming from me personally, it doesn't represent that of staff. If you want to be dismissive of other people their opinions then at least provide something to back it up. Personally I'd love to see more data from various level and gear ranges because you can't balance every class purely around level 200 and perfect gears.

    If you assume that decisions get made purely on a single dpm shown then I must inform you that that is not the case at all. Otherwise there would have been drastic changes made long ago already.
     
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  17. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    If you provided us your data/gear, we could then compare it to data we have of other classes of similar range.

    It's just funny that you keep falling back on this argument that Skar's DPM is some outlier example because it's the only one that was presented in this thread, but DPM is something that is openly shared amongst people in end-game bossing communities via discord, and many people know that Skar's DPM isn't even the top DPM. It's just the most fair representation of different class DPM because the player is the same, so player skill difference doesn't become another unknown variable in the conversation.

    Let me ask you this - if classes can't be balanced based on potential (end game), at what level should classes be balanced?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2023
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  18. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Sorry I'm blind, couldn't find what u mentioned on the skill changes page.
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/maplelegends-skill-changes.39396/
     
  19. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    alot of our comments here are made on data/gear. hence, we are all saying the same thing. most of us here play multiple characters. for instance, i play bucc, nl, bm, hero and pally.
     
  20. DrChuchu
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    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    One datapoint on DPM: my 157 bucc main body DPM30 at HT 10 man was 4.2m on cider/echo/SE/MW20. Gear is +6 w.att over subterlabor's gear post earlier in the thread. Maxed TL, ST, demo, 11 SI, barrage 21*, DS 1.

    Improvements to be made: only my 4th HT run on bucc, need SP to max barrage/DS, need to hit lv160

    Notes: barrel canceling didn't feel like a necessity in HT but is of course necessary for PB pin out of ST. Does IED work on wdef+ buff on bosses as well? If so, buccs basically just ignore the need for dispel heads as opposed to any other class.

    *Changed from barrage 27->21
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2023
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