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Actually balance the game

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Motto, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. jesscapades
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    jesscapades Pac Pinky

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    I have no opinion on your argument but I noticed some pretty egregious errors that I felt were worth highlighting. They all bias damage amounts downwards, which is in favour of your argument.

    Not the right formula. I'm assuming you're looking at https://ayumilove.net/maplestory-formula/. The description says this is post-big-bang. The correct formula is on https://ayumilovemaple.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/maplestory-formula-compilation/, and the correct formula is strictly greater than the incorrect one at all values of MA.

    Not only that, but you're neglecting damage bonuses from elemental amplification and elemental wands.

    Why do you say how many mobs it hits, and why is that relevant to your damage calculations? You don't reference it again.

    Yes, and a 120 mage would also have at least 5 magic attack. A level 120 mage would have at least 604 INT, and probably wouldn't be attacking bare naked with no wand. You're underestimating the TMA, again biasing your results towards your argument. Also, a level 120 mage wouldn't have max fire demon.

    140 doubled is not 240. Also, looking at your calculations (where you used 140 spell attack) does it really sound right to you that a level 120 mage is doing max 3k damage?

    Not sure what a "features link" is but you can get all skill info in the library.
     
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  2. Poot
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    Poot Red Snail

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    Make Maple Playable Again 2020
     
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  3. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    Ok given the fact that talking about mages is prohibited, let me fix my "biased comment" for the calculations, and actually use overpowered stats as... well we can see on this piece of post:
    So let's assume our dear friend at lvl 120 has 1000000 magic attack /s

    To make people understand that the other skills are able of mobbing, as many say that mages without Ultis are not good at mobbing anymore.
    For this matter is good to say that Fire/Ice Demon can hit multiple mobs.
    Which goes to say that, if one ever maxes those skills, he'll be able of netting a certain amount of DMG to those mobs.

    Seems like you don't use discord, there with the bot you can say !features and get the link to the features post for the skill changes and more.

    That's going to just increase / decrease the normalized value of DMG from the spell damage calculated.
    That means you apply the correct % reduction or increase from mob weakness or strength to the normal MDG value of the spell casting, that's easy math anyone can try out, given the fact that normal values are given out.

    Sadly the library skills are not changed to value in-game or as described in the features post from Kimmy.

    --- After the sarcasm / annotations to fixes, let's start with the recalculation based on this pepega comment I got ---

    Spell Damage:
    MAX = ((Magic²/1000 + Magic)/30 + INT/200) * Spell Attack
    MIN = ((Magic²/1000 + Magic * Mastery * 0.9)/30 + INT/200) * Spell Attack​

    So this appears to be the formula for pre-BB.

    Let's assume this time a LVL 140 mage (so that no pepega can say "how can a lvl 120 have maxed demon hihihihihi")

    At lvl 140 you're assumed to have 704 INT (if you don't luk mage, you filthy pleb), let's assume our dear friend has a good bathrobe, zhelm, wand,shield,pgc, shoes, whatever the fuck else you want to add.
    And he has another +150 INT from his filthy equips. (+20ish magic attack too)

    LVL 140 704 + 150 (854) INT
    Let's assume this pepega has a elem wand with idk 170magic attack let's say

    So this pepega mage has 170 + 20 + 854 magic attack => 1.044 TMA
    Let's make the calculations of this mage for Ice Demon, the features thread says Ice Demon has 140 Basic attack
    MAX = ((1044²/1000 + 1044)/30 + 854/200) * 140 => 10556 DMG
    MIN = ((1044²/1000 + 1044 * 0.6 * 0.9)/30 + 854/200) * 140 => 8315 DMG

    That means that, at a normal mob a I/L LVL 140 would do about 10k dmg on a mob with Ice Demon. Assuming he can hit 6 mobs with it, it means he can deal out about 60k DMG per cast.

    Meanwhile Blizzard would be calculated as follows (550 Basic attack)
    MAX = ((1044²/1000 + 1044)/30 + 854/200) * 550 => 41470 DMG
    MIN = ((1044²/1000 + 1044 * 0.6 * 0.9)/30 + 854/200) * 550 => 32666 DMG
    So now the idea of the balance is to, in some way, make mages think more about what kind of spell they'd like to use.
    Given the fact that Blizzard is a long cast time spell, we can see how Ice Demon could be boosted harder, making them subpar to the Ultis cast (maybe about 60% of their dmg, so about 24k DMG), so that people, by double casting Ice Demon could do the same demon as Blizzard does (making them understand the possibilities of actually using a skill) without braindead 1 click gameplay.

    So, in a possible example we can see how, doubling Ice Demon, 140 -> 280 we would have:
    MAX = ((1044²/1000 + 1044)/30 + 854/200) * 280 => 21112 DMG
    MIN = ((1044²/1000 + 1044 * 0.6 * 0.9)/30 + 854/200) * 280 => 16630 DMG
    Now, I'm not here to presume people would understand much of what I'm saying.
    But the main idea that needs to be taken home is that, after some calculations, we can see how mages could start being more efficient outside of just being pepega farmers, if well introduced changes can be made for the class.
    Why can't mages be used in bosses efficiently? Why not change their meta, make them more bossy-based as well.
    By increasing their "other skills" they could start being more efficient for bossing as well, and still be competent enough for leeching or their pepega shit usage.

    What could be done, to prevent this game to be Maple Mageends, is to, in some way, balance their usage skills between ultis and non ulti skills.
    I think I rarely see people with Chain Lightning, Demons or Paralyze maxed, because they are just garbage skills in comparison to Ultis, then again they say they can't boss... because you have pepega skills by the first moment.
    By rebalancing the other skills, you could make I/L and F/P more able of being a supporting DPM machine at bosses, even without Ultis.


    And, in some way, make it more reasonable for mages to stop being Ulti leechers (this will be impossible to change lmao, 20iq population).
    What does people think about nerfing Ultimates? From 550 down to 400 or so? Making it more viable to farm maps with the other skills? (that are buffed of course)

    This is just my 2 coins on the matter, just gonna read the salt that comes after this post, can't be fucked to write another pepega story for people that can't understand how this game is not balanced at all.
    And well, if you say "this game is nostalgia old maplestory changing it is not right" then you're in the wrong server, because it's not old maplestory anymore.
     
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  4. Buch
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  5. Elyar
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    Elyar Mano

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    You sound very angry—like you need therapy—, which is why I'm supporting Bernie 2020 so you can actually get some.
     
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  6. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    thanks but I'm not American, I can go to the hospital for free, even for psychological therapy.

    But thanks for the tip.
     
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  7. Elyar
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    Elyar Mano

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    For sure. LMK if you ever move here, I know a few therapists I can refer you to.
     
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  8. OP
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    Motto Skelegon

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    aight mr.bishop
     
  9. NatteHond
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    NatteHond Skelosaurus

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    :( D: !
     
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  10. redblueblur
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    redblueblur Mr. Anchor

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    hallo... lupins and WR has some snipe spots with clustered gatherings of mobs, I hardly see the above mentioned jobs actively moving around than to loot.

    hallo... have u seen how small of an aoe Demon skills actually are? also the slow speed castings? the HP/MP bars to manage as a mage using Magic guard? the retardness in close combat just to use this skill?

    Idk where u get ur idea of how boosting Ice Demon can avoid braindead gameplay.

    Dhey, in similarity these 2 skills have: Slow Cast speeds, simi rojak combo u want mages to do? by then daybreak liao uh, mobs run away alrdy.
     
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  11. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    If you want to nerf ults so bad for the sake of making mages have better utility and less braindead then you'd actively be chasing mages farther away from Horntail. Their DPM is directly related to their ult's power. If you want them to use CL/Paralyze then it would need to be a seriously overdone buff as without any sort of stance or avoidability they will be spending a lot of time just moving back to the attacking spot, like BM's and MM but worse.

    Nerf Genesis on bishops and you now have the case that it's pointless to chase high level magic in Horntail because they will never be able to 1ko Dark Wyverns, a staple of any god-tier bishop. In that case it then wouldn't really matter much if you bring some 16x bishop that knows what they're doing or a level 19x one with godly magic gear as they both provide the same utility.

    If you want to make nerfs then they should probably be based off of reality and experience rather than just what you feel because those ideas are awful and would make things worse for bossing on a mage/bishop.
     
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  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Legends should just get rid of mobs and have one monster spawn on each map at all times. :) ez fix
     
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  13. Elyar
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    Elyar Mano

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    Hard agree.
     
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  14. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Of course you can always bring up the 'oh no my bishop is no longer going to be viable in horntail' argument, but does that really hold up?
    Mages are currently already not top DPM at bossing, sure, that's true. But that's the way the class was made. In return for their lack of bossing utility/dpm, they gain such an incredible amount of mobbing ability that it almost draws it out of proportion.
    The extent to which mages are good at mobbing when compared to literally every other class (except perhaps a DK) seems so vastly superior that it makes sense for them to have shit DPM at bossing. I'm not fully aware of the DPM charts as they are right now, but I would be surprised if mages couldn't just as well get by with a 5s cd on their ults.

    However, whether it be a nurf to their ults or a buff to the other classes/skills/maps, you name it, I think anyone that doesn't acknowledge the fact that there's a serious disbalance within the server's meta right now is purposely closing their eyes to it or is surprisingly stupid.
    After all, the sheer percentage of people that (have been advised to) make a mage to fund their attacker is absurd.
    Is this a problem? Not necessarily.
    Is it a clear indication of a busted meta? Yes.
     
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  15. Discor
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    Discor Slimy

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    i understand that there is a difference between classes and that some have advantages over the other , but i really can't understand the big problem with that.
    because lets be honest there are aspects to the game meta which are not the way it is so posed to be played ,
    such as:
    1. hp washing.
    2. being dexless, lukless, strless ( depends on your class).
    3. having the best gear scrolled and stuff right away.

    all of those are things which for some reason are expected to be given to the player, and i don't get it.
    it is true that mages are the easiest class to farm mesos but it doesn't mean you can't get reach as a different classs , it means that it will take you more time.
    is it such a bad thing ?? i think that the problem of the meta is made by people, who wish to be super efficient have the best gear possible do the best dmg possible and to have huge pools of hp and mp , and they spread this idea that you have to make a mage since it is faster and easier to max dmg and no hp washing required .
    but you really do not have to , there are so much more options to fund the perfect character , after all this is an MMOrpg
    you can make a normal character and just have fun until lvl 80-90 and then restart with the acquired funds
    or bond with people join a guild ask for help in: farming,gear,funds,quests you name it.
    maybe just maybe you can grit your teeth and you know play the class you want, and slowly but surly grind your way to success ( i mean there are lvl 50 islanders :spiderman: if they can do it on maple island i believe you can as well on main land with quest and PQ).

    EDIT: found the tread My maple journal by spencil2spencil2
    "Day 399
    Playtime today: 3 hrs
    Total playtime: 967 hrs

    In game highlights:
    -Good grind 7F with AeonsTom
    -CWK exchange quest/gach (see below)
    -Found 3 60% overall INTs
    -Lucky with scrolling today (see below)
    -Achieved my first bil! All without selling leech/using mules and only with the power of the daily grind"


    one more thing maybe i am wrong about this one but from what i hear all of this is because people want to boss on too low levels , so yeah to do massive dmg and to have massive hp pools on lover lvls you have to have godly gear and hp\mp wash for which you need A LOT of funds(so mages are convenient mule to do), but again it is not a given or the way it should be, it is something to WORK for.

    so yeah instead of bombarding new folks with charts math and the obligatory " it is optional BUT..." tell them to have fun and offer help in game when you see someone new.
     
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  16. Discor
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    Discor Slimy

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    on a side note can some one enlighten me on the subject of balance in this game ,
    because i feel like i am missing some crucial information.

    what i mean is that maple story has no pvp it is just pure pve on top of that there are no fight for maps since "@mapowner" is a thing
    so why is it such a problem if some class outperforms a different one ?

    i understand suggestions about changing skills to make them more usable , lets say final attack which is avoided like the plague,
    so we can go back to the beginning of the tread and say it differently:
    the mages ulti is so OP it makes all other skills meaningless lets nurf it and buff idk single target dmg skills by making them faster or different aoe skills by increasing range .
    and i can see some merit to the argument , but if it all comes to "mage can afk farm and i can't so boo mages " i can't get why in a pve only game that is a problem ?
     
  17. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    If you can't get that, I don't see why you're in this thread.
     
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  18. Discor
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    Discor Slimy

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    there are 2 main reasons:
    1. to better understand the issue and to advance the conversation.
    2. i am bored and this is interesting .
     
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  19. Vowels
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    Vowels Mr. Anchor

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    It isn't about playing the fool or being stupid, but it's more about perspectives and how players from the early-game, mid-game and end-game clash with their different views about the game. For example you are concerned with the funding/grinding aspect of the game (mid-game) but you are also dismissing the horntail argument (end-game) and saying that you lack awareness about bossing DPM charts (end-game). Is that terrible? Never, it just might be the case that you aren't a end-game player, but I must say that to properly discuss balance you should give this stage the importance it has.

    To understand the three stages of the game we must experience all of them, one leads to another and each have particular problems and playstyles. And it's only possible to overcome two of them.
    Is it possible to overcome the early-game? Yes
    Is it possible to overcome the mid-game? Yes
    Is it possible to overcome the end-game? No
    What's the point? That if someone is ruined in the end-game is ruined forever. As it is obviously impossible to go beyond this stage.

    The deal with balance is the cause-effect that decisions have in every aspect of the game. It should be done carefully, and in my opinion giving extra emphasis to think about end-game consequences, as it is the only stage that can't be overcome.

    For example, let's consider Motto's suggestion about decreasing ults powers. From the 4th job mage players we realistically have three kinds: leeching archmages, leeching bishops and bossing bishops. From these, if ults were to be nerfed, leeching archmages and leeching bishops could easily overcome the nerf by leveling a bit to get more stats, but that's not the case for horntail bishops that seek to 1KO dark wyverns (end-game concern), as they need around 1600 magic and its only possible by being lvl 200 with echo and very good equips. In this case the nerf can't be overcome by leveling nor funding because getting one extra magic from equips at that point is extremely difficult, So this ult nerf would only realistically wound end-game goals such as the Horntail bishop one making it impossible for them to accomplish.

    On a side note there aren't bossing archmages, because the class is merely looked as a means to an end, aka improving the attacker main. If there were archmage mains we could actually have data about bossing dpm in bosses like horntail, but it's a shame because even if there were and even if we already acknowledge the class cleaving potential, who would really recruit an archmage, there's a lack of bravery and creativity to try new things. It's as if it was an obligation to always run with the typical safe composition of night lord, night lord, archer, dk, hero/shad, bishop when it has been proven that other kind of compositions work too and can clear as fast or faster than a default one. Changing this mentality is an end-game concern, to identify the niche in which every class can work in the bossing end. It's from the end-game perspective and by testing how each class perform where suggestions like "buff marksman" come or in it's moment "nerf heaven's hammer" came. From the end-game perspective Archmage is a limited class that only exists in ULU2, petris and shaolin, they sell leech and get mesos, what else they do. Suggesting ult cd or nerfing ults powers only manages to delete them from the game and finally makes them completely undesirable from any bossing test. Balance isn't that.

    You guys should ask for better maps, better alternatives to the big lose mannequins nerf was, maps where players that don't like mage playstyle can get good drops and decent exp with appropiate mobility, maps safe from afk summon farming. Those would be good suggestions. But instead theres suggestions to bring mages down, when it's supossed to be a class that excels at mobbing. The real problem is the lack of good maps alternatives for mid-game attackers not the mage class.
     
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  20. OP
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    1st)
    I'm not sure if you read the thread, or are just trying to reroute the problems, but as I've said in the beggining, there's two types of balances that can be applied to mages, which won't hurt them on the long run.

    2nd)
    For this reason I replied once again on the thread with this:
    Most maps mentioned here can solve the problem of mid-game problems melee classes
     
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